HD vs Bad back - Page 1

Just about every dog I have ever seen to have "HD "problem in older age had actually spinal problem. What is your experience.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Yes always in my personal few dogs.

Most people just call it "problems with the back end" and don't actually distinguish. For breeders, however, this is a crucial distinction as the two problems are completely unrelated.

Back problems can also be related to injury, arthritis, or to DM. Injuries are painful for the dog and may be misdiagnosed at first as knee/ligament injuries. My old competition dog was injured and I had 3 orthopedic vets tell me that he had a blown ACL before I took him to Virginia Tech vet school, where they did an MRI and found bone chips in his spinal canal. He had back surgery to clean out  the bits of broken bone and scar tissue in the injured area and came back to pretty much full capacity after about 8 months of rehab.

DM (degenerative myelopathy) generally shows up with an increasing level of numbness, loss of proprioception (ability to tell what the feet/limbs are doing), and eventual paralysis of the hind end. The new DNA test for DM should begin to help reduce the incidence of this disease in the breed--as long as the DNA test is actually testing correctly. (See www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/DM/testDM.htm )

Old dogs can also be affected by arthritis in their spine, causing pain and loss of mobility and even loss of proprioception--again, this is not the same as DM (which is a degeneration of the myelin sheath on the spinal nerves), even if it looks the same, and it is not genetic but "wear and tear" or injury related.

Christine
blackthornkennel.com

Old dogs can also be affected by arthritis in their spine, causing pain and loss of mobility and even loss of proprioception--again, this is not the same as DM (which is a degeneration of the myelin sheath on the spinal nerves), even if it looks the same, and it is not genetic but "wear and tear" or injury related.

That's exactly what happened to my first GSD. She had such bad arthritis in her spine that the joints had fused together (ankylosing spondylitis). Eventually, she could no longer walk and had to be euthanized. She demonstrated the classic signs of DM (proprioreceptor deficit, dragging her hind feet until the nails were bloody) but it was a totally different situation. An X-ray revealed what the problem was. 

She was only 8 when it first showed up. As I rescued her when she was 5, I have no idea as to what might have caused the condition. She belonged to an elderly man, so I know it wasn't wear and tear due to dog sports!

I know many people are automatically requiring spine xrays along with hip & elbows when purchasing adult dogs.  

I will tell you my experience with DM.  Back in the late 80s  I had a GSD, who was approx  9 years old,  started dragging his back feet, the nail thing, one of the red flags of DM.  Vet diagnosed DM, basically said there was nothing that could  be done.   The dog lasted another year, got wobblier and wobblier, finally one day couldn't get up, so I put him down. 

Fast forward to 1999, my Tiekerhook dog was 8, started doing the same thing.  I took him to the same vet, who thought it was DM again, but this time referred me to a Neurosurgeon.  The Neurosurgeon did a mileogram and discovered it was broken discs that were pressing into the spinal cord.  To say I was relieved is an understatement.   He did surgery and the dog recovered 100%.   Afterwards when I was speaking to my regular vet, he actually had tears in his eyes.  He told me he wondered how many dogs, especially GSDs had been incorrectly diagnosed with DM, and allowed to just continue on  until they could no longer walk, when surgery would have restored them 100%.

At the time my Tiekerhook dog went through this I tried to think of how he must have injured himself.  I thought maybe it was when I had given him a bath and he had tried to jump out of the tub and landed wrong.  But the thing is, there really was no major accident, when the tub thing happened, he didn't cry or walk wrong or anything, and this event was the only thing I could think of.

Now I wonder if it isn't some kind of disc weakness, something genetic possibly?  I didn't keep this dog as thin as I should have so I wonder if it is almost like a perfect storm:  weak discs - overweight - slight injury = broken disc.

Hans:  This dog received a score of mild HD on one hip, moderate on the other, and also had elbow problems when he got older.  We had a total hip replacement done on him when he was 10 years old.  He recovered from that pretty quickly too.  He also had his elbows worked on at the same time, arthrescopic surgery to clean out the joints, remove spurs in the elbow joints.   AFterwards his surgeon put him on both Adequen and Legend, at the time this was experimental but it worked really well for him.  He remained on both for the rest of his life.

Ok, so to finish the story of Zorba:  At 12 he developed bone cancer went through chemo had his other hind leg amputated.  His oncologist said he was the only dog she ever treated with this kind of cancer  that not only thrived while on chemo he gained weight.   He was present, demanding, played ball, got into mischief and was the King Shit Ass Kicker who took no guff from anyone until the end.   When he was 14 years and 2 months old he started to go into multi organ failure, for which there is no cure, only suffering so we put him down, exactly 14 years from the day I got him from The Netherlands.

I'll tell you, this was one tough dog.  If at any point in this journey he had let me know he wanted out I would have put him down.  . 

we lost a male in '95 to DM and a female to spondylosis of the spine in '03.  both were terrible and heartwrenching ordeals.  we currently have a male with dysplasia and at 11 y.o. gets around pretty well.  he doesn't seem to have any other complications.  personally, i think hip problems can be managable as long as they are not severe.  back problems such as DM and spondylosis are debilitating and usually cheat the dog of several years.  when people post on this board and others about hip problems, i always think to myself, "it could be a whole lot worse."
pjp

We are having this problem with our beloved Wolf as we speak. Our vet feels that he has had a spinal injury, she found a narrowing in the intervertebral spaces.....but we are wary of DM...he is dragging his left rear foot to the point of needing a boot to keep the nails from wearing down to the pulp. When he runs, he uses both rear legs together, & he can trot, when he's greatly motivated. He does better on pain meds now, which is a change from a few weeks ago...he is 9 years old, & we don't want to put him through any procedure that might not help, he really despises going to the vets. But, you all are making me wonder if treating him conservatively is really the right way to go...???? He has had a rough life....! BTW- his hips were just OFA'd a year ago, & they came back good, so HD is not the issue! jackie harris

i hear ya, jackie.  the female that we lost, had good hips right up to the end.  unfortunately, her spine was not.

pjp

Yes I have had several with bad hips that lived a long life only to have spinal issues or DM to end their life. I am glad to have the test for DM. I have tested all of our dogs.

when people post on this board and others about hip problems, i always think to myself, "it could be a whole lot worse."
pjp

One of my wife's imports (a personal favorite) was just diagnosed last week with spondylosis of the spine, so don't think when I discuss hips the other problems this breed faces escape me.  Luckily enough, she was never bred to spread the genetics.