Sch Training help/Paws Off? Fast Dog or Slow Helper - Page 1

It's been a long time since I have posted a training question on here. I usually write privately for advice. These questions are in regards to my 3 year old male.
He was my first GSD and working dog and I had a very late start in SCH, he was two...Then we had some setbacks due to some health issues I was having, requiring surgery, so that put us out of commission for awhile too. Now we are back at  it a few times a week at the club and training at home or the park near my house, daily to prepare him for his BH in Sept. ...So enough of the excuses and history..

My 1st question is the TD/helper at one of the clubs I train with does not allow Galan to put his paws on his legs when he grabs the sleeve. He swats them away... I have seen tons of video of many good dogs who use their paws to fight and pull.
The breeder said this can be good especially in the escape. I'm not sure why my TD/helper at that club does not allow this.
SO I am curious to what all of you think. What would the reasoning be behind it?

The second thing is, my dog grabs the sleeve too often before the helper wants him to. He says my dog is just really fast. (We have not advanced to the blinds yet) I have gotten a few different opinions from some of my friends that this is not good and was just looking for some more. I haven't been back to that club in awhile, and though I like the people personally, I am wondering if these things are going to cause a problem with my dog. I don't want any hard feelings between me and them, but I also don't want to go back if any of the above things are going to cause my male to get more dirty than he already is.

Last thing... Several months ago, the club president (who really, really likes my dog but seems to come out opposite days than me) told the TD to take my dog off the puppy sleeve. He still has not, but I don't want to question him since that seems like a minor thing.

Any input is appreciated.

1st question: The helper wants to make sure the dog is gripping the sleeve properly (at least I hope this is what he is thinking).

2nd question: The helper should always be ready for a bite from the dog. If your helper is not fast enough to catch your dog properly go somewhere else.

3rd question: Puppy sleeve/adult sleeve....who cares? If your dog is biting properly it doesn't matter. If the helper feels he still needs bite training work it is better to use the puppy sleeve or even a bite pillow. Graduating to the adult sleeve seems to be a badge of honor with so many dog owners. Good helpers and good trainers that I know have no problem going back to a bite pillow with a Sch 3 dog if they feel it is necessary.

 the thing with the legs? I don't know, ask him.  The only time I could ever see swatting the legs is when the out command is given and the dog has to leave the helper alone, feet on the helper at that point is lost points.  Anytime during the fight, the feet can be wherever the dog wants them.

as for getting the sleeve cause he's fast, how is he getting it?  when he gives misses?  or is the dog doing barking and just biting?  if he's just getting it with misses and frustration a few of those won't hurt anything, I think it only helps the dog think to try hard always.  If he's biting it as in being dirty with barking or something like that, it's not the decoy's fault, it's yours for letting him.  I guess I"m not really sure what you're asking.  Why do your friends say this is not good?

and the sleeve question?  who cares.  at some point he'll have to bite a trial sleeve and well trained dogs will bite anything with no problems.  We use so many sleeves, usually whatever is available at that moment for all levels of dogs other than totally green dogs which aren't on sleeves.  It doesn't matter, unless you've got a crusher and in your in a puppy sleeve.  you feel those, a lot.

There is really no valid reason for a biting dog to keep his paws off the helper.  It's a Schutzhund thing.  PP dogs, police dogs, and any good protection dog puts paws on or wraps up, a good protection dog should be pushing in, NOT pulling.  The fact that a helper can correct a dog or swat their paws with a stick, well SchH is a sport not real life protection.

For the other things I don't know the dog, or why at 2 a working lines GSD would still be on a puppy sleeve (not the sleeve itself that's an issue but the fact that he's not hard biting) could be just needs more sessions geared specifically towards building up his bite- have they given you a plan for that? or maybe it's not geneticaly hard, but I would want to go get second opinions from another good protection trainer.  I think the timing of when the dog hits the sleeve is more the handler's timing, and the helpers reaction?  When is he too fast?

Thanks all for the replies so far. I am about to get ready for work, but I will try to elaborate more tomorrow because I know part of my post probably wasn't too clear.
(and yes...the graduating is kind of a badge of honor, I guess that part I am just trying to rush when I shouldn't)
I will get on here tomorrow as soon as I get a chance and answer each question...thanks guys, excellent posts!!
Stacy

I have been avoiding the training threads but I'll add my 2 cents here, FWIW.

I agree with Mystere completely regarding the paws on the decoy, and others who mentioned it as well.  I do not like it when a helper swats at my dogs paws.  Now a dog who uses it's paws to push off in avoidance of the out to maintain movement on the sleeve is a different story.  I prefer my dogs wrap the helper and show their commitment to the fight.  But, you can also teach the pulling away and trying to bring the helper down with the paws on the decoy.  Once the decoy locks up, I want the paws off for a clean out and hold and bark.  But during an escape, wrapping or pushing is fine if the bite is good. 

I do agree grips are genetic, but good training can improve the grips of dogs that are not so genetically gifted.  Regarding the wrapping, which I especially like for Police k9's I work with some guys who will swat the feet of the Police dogs.  This makes me a little crazy.  I don't mind you pressuring my dog, I want the decoy to pressure my dog, but when it's time for the dog to win leave his damn paws alone. 

Some decoys swat the paws to avoid being scratched, well if you work my dogs you are getting scratched.  Sorry, man up and take it. 

Regarding your second question:
The second thing is, my dog grabs the sleeve too often before the helper wants him to. He says my dog is just really fast. (We have not advanced to the blinds yet) I have gotten a few different opinions from some of my friends that this is not good and was just looking for some more.

Your right this is not good.  Are you doing handler/post where you are holding the leash or is the dog back tied on post?  I would need a little more information here.  Is this a relatively new helper, my guess?  How does the dog have the opportunity to grab the sleeve are you working on a hold and bark and the dog gets dirty?  Your dog should never be allowed to get the sleeve before the helper wants.  This could be a handler problem as well.  You and the helper may not be in sync and it will cause you long term problems.  Once the dog learns he can get a dirty bite in the hold and bark for example, that lesson never leaves the dog's mind. 

You need to be a Little more clear or detailed on exactly how and when the dog grabs the sleeve before the helper is ready. 

Jim

"...TD/helper at one of the clubs I train with does not allow Galan to put his paws on his legs when he grabs the sleeve. He swats them away... I have seen tons of video of many good dogs who use their paws to fight and pull."

Paws on the helper can be judged as interference with the helper... Also, if your dog is trained to bite and hang with his mouth only, his grips should be much better. Feet on the helper can give a dog an opportunity to brace themselves for chewing, mouthing, etc..., thus preventing good, full gripping habits.


"The second thing is, my dog grabs the sleeve too often before the helper wants him to."

What does that mean? A sport dog has three circumstances in which to biting is permissable: (1) when the helper attacks, (2) when the helper flees, and (3) when he is told to do so. If your dog is "dirty", it can be either the helper's fault or the handler's fault... Hard to say sight unseen and not knowing how your dog was trained. But if he is dirty, SOMEONE has to do something. If your dog is dirty, then the speed of your helper is irrelevant.

And lastly:

Why is your 3 year old adult male on a puppy sleeve? He has all of his adult teeth. Even if he was introduced late to the game, after a few practice sessions, he should at least be worked on an intermediate sleeve. If he has a confidence issue, do a lot of pulling with him, but let him win when he pulls hard. Just be aware that soft equipment can be a double edged sword for older or trained dogs... It can actually make them mouthy and chewy.

"...a good protection dog should be pushing in, NOT pulling."

Why would a sport or "protection dog" push on an escape bite? The dog is PREVENTING the helper/suspect from fleeing... Even if a police dog aprrehends someone, they do in fact "pull".

.

Just for the record, I read the original post and then offered my 2 cents... I did not read other posts until after the fact. The majority of my training experience is with sport dogs, but after reading Jim's post, I agree that I would want my dog to use his entire body to prevent someone from fleeing. I think that it is only "avoided" in the sport because of the focus placed on the grips and gripping behavior under stress.