table training - Page 1

just thought i would start a training thread.

protection work-
remote directional training-
gun dogs-
obedience training-
etc....................................

Just would like people opinions and or experience with the use of training tables implimented in there programs-

as with all methods of training, if its use correctly its great, if not it can ruin a dog.......

box training is the same thing....... http://www.eurosportk9.com/boxtraining.asp  used correctly its a wonderful method to train.

Experience: none

Opinion: mostly not necessary, nothing magical that I can tell.

I think the table is useful and safely applied when attempting to stimulate the fight drive in a higher threshold dog, one that is confident but isn't sufficiently proactive in defense, and attained at a quicker and more efficient timescale.  The achieved level of intensity in regard to the dog's defense drive can perhaps be eventually expected anyway in the progress of it's training, but there happens to be a select few dogs I feel that could benefit from that perspective earlier on, or their overconfidence may never allow them to perform at the level you want later.  That particular type of dog has probably already shown slowing progress in it's ground game with "stuttering" work because it 'just doens't feel it', and can't get it's heart into the game.  The dog is underchallenged.

There's probably multiple applications for particular dogs in their various stages of training that the table can be useful, and I've never given it much thought, but I'm neither an advocate nor against it.  I'd just rather have the dog that can do without it.

Hey Yoshy how are you,
This is a topic that I think has been bandied about many times and you will have many opinions about it.
I am glad that you added in other uses besides just protection training. Hopefully this will make for a well rounded and varied discussion.

As one of the top protection sport trainers in Belgium (now Germany) mentioned, "we have tables also in Europe, we use them to eat on."
A lot of protection trainers feel that there isn't anything that you can achieve on a table that you can not achieve on the ground (except for possibly ruining a dog). These are not cream puff trainers either. One that I know of, that is one of the toughest trainers I know and a high level competitor, will never use a table to train a dog.
The first thing that I think about using a table to protection train is that you MUST have a dog that can handle it.
Some can and a lot can not. You have to be very careful. If you are on the fence about using a table with a particular dog, I would say don't do it even with a good trainer.
If you go to a trainer that uses a table on every dog they are training I would find another trainer. I have seen some decent dogs ruined because they were put on a table with a trainer that was not knowledgable enough to know when not to use it.
That is the second most important thing about table training in protection work. You have to have a trainer that really knows what they are doing. There are a lot of junkyard trainers out there. A bad trainer can even ruin a great dog on a table.
Like all tools in training, when used properly, and, appropriately, you can achieve excellent results!

I agree with what everyone else is saying....its for certain dogs and different applications depending on the dog. I have seen the H&B done on a table, I have seen retreives done on a table and I have seen protection work also done on table. The majority of the dogs I have seen ruined were on the ground. Not every dog is candidate for table training, not every dog is candidate for forced reteive, not every dog is candidate for forced tracking(Suc platz).  Yet there are dogs and trainers that are world class that use all these methods. There are dogs and trainers that use none of these methods. So as in remote collars, its the proper application of the tool for the right dog will reap best rewards. When people such as Gene England who has produced schools of great trainers in his own right can find value in the tool who am I to say that it is not effective used correctly. Nothing is absolute in dog training except people's opinions in their mind.

Thanks guys,

I just brought it up to stir conversation and opinions- as well as to see the diversity of disciplines practiced within the dog world by people on this board besides simply track and protect and their methods.

i will say i use a table basically everyday- for directionals and retriever work. However i have never been fortunate enough to see someone in person use one for protection or any other venue. so im curious to programs, apps, opinions, table variations,etc.....

speaking of the force fetch- i may start another thread simply on that topic. it seems there are many varied opinions on what it is- what it intels- what its applications are- what the end result should be be, and how it can be tailored to many different style dogs for the end result desired, etc.....



OGBS,
Doin alright. yoshy is coming along. start his building and wood searches for apprehesion last weekend. hoping he will be ready to start titling in PSA by the spring. I want him ready for his 2's before walking on the field. Ended up going to the dark side. Had a Mali pup fall in my lap. She is coming along. started imprinting her detection work and she is biting well. So im happy with her progress. How are things on your end?

Yoshy,
Ahh... the dark side. Those Mali's can be tough to pass up! Sounds like you are having fun with both Yoshy and the new girl!
My female is just about ready to do her Sch1 and my young male out of Andy Maly Vah is coming along quite nicely.
He is a total character, but, is now starting to show maturity and it is really showing in his protection work.
I am having a lot of fun with both of them, which is, ultimately, my goal.
A friend of mine is just about to do her FH2 with her dog (he is already a Sch3 also) and is then going to begin training for his PSA titles. I may have her contact you for some info.

Gustav,
Good response.  I use the table for training with the Police K9's and it is fantastic.  There is a lot that you can do with a dog on a table that you can't do as easily or as controlled on the ground.  It is effective for sport dogs as well.  The key is knowing when to add pressure, how much pressure to add and how to properly let off the pressure.  Like everything else it is just another tool in the tool box. 

Jim

Yeah I would be more than happy to speak with her. The man responsible for the helper work for my dogs-friend-and breeder of my mali- is the Assist. Director of East Coast PSA. So I can definitely get any answers for her.



Good ol Andy- I still wanna meet that dog. Heard nothing but great things about him. I think he is currently owned by some folks in PA right? not to far from me. one of these days il have to make it up to meet him.


Hey jim,
nice to see you back around. missed ya at the stafford trial. should try to make it up to the GB PSA trial in june.

Yoshy,
GSDFan on here owns Andy. This is her web site: http://www.bojovnikak9.com/
She is a very nice person and just put a Sch2 on her young female Ema. Congratulations to both of them!

Jim,
Deb's seminar went great! She says hello also!
Also great to see you back here and glad that you could add some insight to the table training discussion.
I hope I didn't come off sounding negative about the table, just cautious. I am presently helping someone with their dog that I feel it was used inappropriately with. The dog never should have been put on a table. Hopefully I can pick up the pieces for this woman and her poor dog and get her back on track. If you have any suggestions feel free to pm me.