If this is your aim- you should not be breeding GSD - Page 1

I took this text from a breeder's website and couldn't help but cringe....


"Our breeding goals are to produce the kind of dog that is less driven,
than the typical "working" dog.
Most families do not have the time to constantly work a dog
and want a dog that they can enjoy in the home and trust around their children.
Dogs that can play ball, hike and romp in the yard
and still be able to come in the house and lay at your feet
while the family watches television."

The German Shepherd is meant to be a working dog, and all breeding should reflect that.
      
                "  ...The breeding of Shepherd dogs must be the breeding of working dogs, this
                   must always be the aim or we shall cease to produce working dogs..."     Max v Stephanitz

If you want a "less driven" dog, or a dog that families don't have to "work", then please for heaven's sake, don't breed German Shepherds...Breed Labs, or goldens, Weimeraners (spelling?).....Just leave the breeding of our German Shepherds to people who actually care to keep the breed for what it was bred for- TO WORK!!!!!

Just my two cents

Amanda

The following is an excerpt from something that I wrote a while ago on the state of affairs surrounding the breeding and showing of the GSD in Conformation shows today

Is the Total GSD a dog for everyone?

The answer that I have received from multiple sources is that the Total GSD IS NOT A DOG FOR EVERYONE! One breeder compared the total GSD to a thorough bred horse, another breeder compared it to a Ferrari. Just as a fine thoroughbred is not everyone's horse or a Ferrari is not everyone's car so also the total GSD. Now anyone may look at a thoroughbred or a Ferrari and fantasize about owning one but few can really qualify.

Now just imagine if people began to manufacture Ferrari-look-alike clones to satisfy this market fantasy... cars that look like a Ferrari whose engines even growl like a Ferrari but are much more gentler to handle has a hidden automatic shift and much softer suspensions to give you an easier ride....and just to make it legal let us create a certifying process that will give these Ferrari clones the imprimateur of authenticty with the logo of Enzo Ferrari himself.... this certficate will allow the self-deluding owner to parade his Ferrari to the world as having the title from Ferrari itself.... then let us take this process one step further.

Let us create a venue... a Grand Prix for all these Ferrari clones. where the various manufacturers of these Ferrari's can drive their creations around the track and prizes can be awarded to the winners.... and to ensure that we prove to the spectating public one more time that these are not clones but true products of Enzo Ferrari's assembly line that bear his certifying seal... let us have a small performance test ... a zero-to 60 time measure before we allow entrants to drive in the Grand Prix... of course the stopwatch being used to time it will run at the discretion of the referee...

... wait a minute... what do we do about that small group of GENUINE FERRARI entrants? Oh! No problem... those cars look so powerful and muscular... they accelarate too quickly and their drivers have a hard time conrolling their beast machines on such a tight and crowded circuit... their constant stop and starts make them look jerky.... we can put them in the last of the line-up as representatives of what not to shoot for in a TRUE Ferrari.....

"German Shepherd Dog Breeding is Working Dog Breeding or else it is not German Shepherd Dog breeding"..... Max von Stephanitz.


---- Ravi Iyer

I think the same breeder says (we specialize in oversized German Shepherds). Most probably your viewpoint is correct, but I am not sure if anyone has the right to criticize another breeder on a public forum if the said breeder does not hide something and his business is legitimate and does not deceive buyers.
Pardone me for saying this but I really have confused feelings, on one hand what you said is true, on the other hand do you have the right to do what you did !!

Sincerely
Ibrahim

I was just talking yesterday with a friend about how so many people want the wrong breed of dog. The fact is, if one really knows dogs, that while there is certainly variation in temperament to some degree within breeds, breeds are very different, in intelligence and temperament. Most people want a "rug that licks". They are perhaps going to take their dog for a walk, but all too many, including some we see here, relegate the dog to some backyard and do nothing with the dog.

To take a breed like the GSD and purposely breed for a dog who cannot work and has no or little drive and only wants to lie around all day is a compromise of the worst kind. We see so many examples here on this forum of compromise on all fronts. This forum represents in all ways, only a microcosm of what it really is in the real world, be it politics or dogs.

 Recently on this forum someone posted talking about how much he/she liked the droopy jowls on a given GSD and wanted to know if he/she could "breed" for this. This is, of course, a fault and it is something that does present health problems for the dog who is not meant to have such jowls. Several people suggested this person get a different breed of dog. 

We see people breeding for huge size, for mixes they call a variety of other names and their own "creation", for different colors (some of which are associated with deleterious genes) and a host of conformational faults to the extreme (witness the dog recently showing up on the ads that is slanted perhaps 45 degrees from front to back and looks like someone's idea of a rocket battery pointed towards the sky).  It is no different when breeding for other traits related to structure, but the MOST important, besides health, is the temperament of the dogs being bred. If you don't want a working dog who has drive, then go to another breed. Simple. But too many people are doing it just because they can as some like to post here and say they post "just because they can", even when they have nothing to say of any relevance.

It just demonstrates how the "masses" breeding dogs of any breed, without any appreciation for the purpose or the history of a given breed, only serves generally to destroy that breed. We see it here over and over. People who know little about the breed of GSDs get dogs, come here, act like they want to learn, but all they really want to do is breed dogs.....for all the wrong reasons. Even those who buy dogs and import them, even dogs coming from "good bloodlines", are not alway dogs who are suitable to uphold the standard of the breed. And yes, even dogs from VA bloodlines don't necessarily deserve to be bred and may not be good examples of the breed at all. But there is, unfortunately, little to be done about it. Even on this forum in the last several years we have seen nothing but a dilution of what is being bred and of more concern, fewer and fewer people who really know what they are doing. Reading a book is all they have ever done, if that, and most have only read shit on an internet site. 

I read many of the comments on websites posted here about goals and why someone is breeding and it only makes me fear for the well being of the breed. Couple that with selling to idiots and lazy people who only want a "trophy" GSD or a GSD for other wrong reasons and the breed is doomed, as are other working breeds (we have already seen that in labs, for example).

Afwark15,

As far as your statement as they should breed labs,goldens, or weimaraners. Maybe you should look at the history of these breeds before saying that. These three breeds are actually meant for work as well. Though you dont find many descent weims or goldens anymore it is because of the attitude of breeding them for pets. I work with retrievers everyday that have more drive and workability than many shepherds these days. everyone seems to like to use the phrase over the top drive these days. well i see this constantly in the working field labs.

So maybe we should say dont screw up any of these working breeds by deminishing there working capacity with poor breeding practices and sales pitchs.

I agree with what you are trying to say though.

just yesterday i had two clients come out with sheherd pups. one of which wanted to turn there 16 week pup in a diabetes detection dog and put schh titles on it (I explained why this was a bad idea for a dog to be trained in both venues). the other wanted to make there 10 week old pup into a SAR K9.

Both pups were horribly made structurally. minimal drive. under socialized and these breeders prey on their ignorance selling them potential candidates for venues the dogs arent cut out for.  It amazes me what people will do for a buck.
So this will continue to happen until buyers educate themselves. It isnt rocket science and it is our resposibility as enthusiasts to attempt to imform people before the make poor decisions in procurement of pups. Not to take any resposibility off the buyer but i for one try to educate and help many people with this most of the time for free.
 
Or take the other day- having to explain to this lady that her aussie doodle was simply a mutt. she was charged 4000$ for a austrailian shepherd - poddle mix. This new wave of designers dogs so to speak is doing a major disservice as well. And people are getting robbed constantly because of breeders preying on there ignorance. It amazes me to no end.

"their own "creation", for different colors (some of which are associated with deleterious genes) and a host of  conformational faults to the extreme (witness the dog recently showing up on the ads that is slanted perhaps 45 degrees from front to back and looks like someone's idea of a rocket battery pointed towards the sky). "


The whole post was great, but I had to laugh at the quote above, really funny in a very sad sort of way because it is so true.  
It's enough to make you cry.

Ibrahim, I think it's all right to criticize breeding theory/purposes. I know you just want to keep it polite (you are so charming!) but ASSUMING it stays civil, why not? Many people could learn from such a discussion, and if it keeps one amateur from producing a bunch of weak litters, it would be a good outcome. 

If people just want a big dog that can lay at their feet, play with the kids, and doesn't require lots of work, there are plenty of shelter dogs that are dumped just for getting too big. Or because the family is moving. Or because they don't like to vaccuum up hair. That's why I get a little peeved when I see a breeding philosophy for producing "just pets". There are PLENTY of dogs that qualify in your local rescue or shelter.

Yoshy, what is the rationale behind not having a dog trained in both diabetes detection and Schutzhund? Is it a liability issue or something else? I'm just generally curious about service dog training... my collie alerts to blood sugar changes but can't be a service dog due to poor nerves.

I have to agree with Ibrahim... Maybe the breeder is trying to produce a GSD that I am sure MS is really talking about. Lets get real. Do you think that MS wanted the GSD to be a "OUT OF THE BOX" type dog. Seriously aren't some of the GSDs that are produced today have way too much drive for the average person?  JMO, that this breeder's goal maybe to breed that GSD that will protect his family with his life, but not the gsd that has so much drive it is chasing flies or anything that moves. I am not saying that is a bad thing, just saying that maybe the breeder is talking about a more laid back GSD that is ready to work whenever asked too., but not always moving with nervous energy... JUST MY OPINION!!! Now if the breeder is talking about oversized GSDs, I do NOT agree with that....AT ALL!!!!   JUST MY OPINION...