DDR Percentage

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by WhatIf on 05 April 2010 - 13:04

I was reading a discussion on a different forum about DDR Lines. One of the responses was if you breed a non DDR to a DDR, take an offspring breed to DDR, pick an offspring from that mating and breed to a DDR, and so on for 7 or 8 generations the line becomes DDR. Is this widely practiced?

I came across many sites that claim their dogs a are 75 or 90 percent DDR. If they approch 100%, do they consider their dogs pure DDR?

Thanks,

by BlackthornGSD on 05 April 2010 - 13:04

DDR is just a label. It's not like certified bourbon or something. The best we can say at this point is that a dog is from DDR bloodlines and of DDR type. And very few dogs go back to only DDR registered dogs--although it's not impossible.

No one regulates what someone will label a dog--I've seen people advertising DDR bloodlines when 1 great-grandparent is DDR. I've seen people saying their dogs are all working lines when all of the 5-generation pedigree is West German and American show lines. Just because you come up with what you consider to be an acceptable definition of "what is DDR" doesn't mean that anyone else will be using that same definition. Do your best to educate yourself and make your own judgments.

I will assert that most of the best working dogs from DDR bloodlines have been (heavily) mixed with West German working dogs (and/or Czech working lines, most of which also have some West German working lines in them). And more important than any label is the selection of the individual dogs within that pedigree.

Christine
BlackthornKennel.com

by Ibrahim on 05 April 2010 - 14:04

Christine, Excellent explanation

Ibrahim

by Pharaoh on 05 April 2010 - 17:04

Pharaoh is from 100% DDR parentage. However, in the seventh and eighth generation, there is one of my all time favorite dogs, Marko Cellerland bred to a Czech female and the offspring is DDR registered. That was one way to get around the dificulties of getting good bloodlines from West German Dogs that were the phenotype they were breeding for.

Bernd and Bodo Lierberg appear in many great DDR pedigrees.

Before World War II and the partitioning of Germany, there was no DDR.

The difference is that the East Germans did not suffer through the Martin Brothers regime.

Michele

by DDR-DSH on 05 April 2010 - 17:04

Christine's pretty much on spot with her explanation. There is really almost no such thing as "pure" DDR, anymore. Even where it does exist, the dogs may not be the best representatives, or even worth owning.

Even the best (IMO) DDR lines, existing before the repatriation of East Germany to West Germany, are "mixed" with Bernd vom Lierberg. Other good dogs go back to Czech imports to DDR, to lines considered as "show" lines.. There are several of these. If you want only "pure" lines, then you risk throwing out a lot of good dogs of which there are no other remnants, because someone says they are "tainted" with W. German lines.

There are some self made experts out there who are talking a lot of stupid crap, more or less selling what they've got, and they may not even have such good dogs, per se. Do your own research and talk to a lot of people before you make your decision. I would be very careful with people who talk too much trash about other breeders and bloodlines, while they profess to be "saving" these dogs. That's pretty much hogwash. Even if it is their sincere intention to save the DDR dogs, this would be a project more suitable for many people.. not just one or two.

As far as percentages go, it's pretty easy to do the math, but it's all irrelevant if you don't have a good dog. The first rule, always is that you must have something good to show for it, or it's all just fancy talk. It may take more than one generation for a breeder to achieve something, and it usually does. It may involve some risk taking and rule bending. I don't necessarily believe in hard and fast rules. A clever breeder seems to have a good combination of experience, common sense, and observation skills.

Remember, always:

"A good dog is where you find it".

by Pharaoh on 05 April 2010 - 18:04

Blackthorne,

I had one of those dogs, a grandson of David Nebelholz. The other 3/4 of his pedigree were German style breeding (working lines) and real American working dogs-ranch dogs/herding dogs who actually worked for a living. In the 6-8th generations there were fine dogs like Bernd Lierberg, Marko Cellarland. He even had my favorite American Showline Caralon's Phantom

this should have been the future

Here's David Nebelholz

a son of Don Rolandsteich S

And this is the resulting phenotype - Shadow's second birthday surrounded by two of his sisters

So, are you going for Phenotype or ????

Michele

by DDR-DSH on 05 April 2010 - 18:04

Michelle, you may or may not know this, but "Phantom" was liked very much by the Schutzhund people because he produced offspring which did very well in the sport training. Wasn't his father an import?
Back in that time, most of the American breeders were still using lines that went back to top quality imports in the first and second generations. The American breeders soon after all went after GV Ch Lance of Fran-Jo and narrowed the gene pool WAY too much, all looking for extremely angulated dogs with a lot of "side-movement". This was a big mistake, IMO.
Not long after that, The W. Germans made the very SAME mistake by all running to the Canto / Quanto lines. Both American and W. German breeders ended up with a very pretty and consistent looking dog, and lost a lot of the genetic diversity they used to have.. which is what is so good about the DDR and Czech dogs, that we are able to actually recover more diversity and some of the original qualities of the breed which were dumped by the show breeders.
Does this make sense?
If you look at Phantom and David, you can't help but see the similarity, even though they are not related closely, per se.. I do remember Phantom's father, Hein von der Lockenheim, and he was almost TOO "wet" or heavy in constitution, actually.. But, this is a different type of dog, phenotypically.. similar to the lines that produced David. Both David's sire (Don Rolandsteich) and his maternal grandsire (Bero vom Baruther Land) could produce this type of a very massive, heavy boned dog with a big head. The risk always with breeding for these kind of dogs is that you may get some which are too "wet" and heavy in constitution. Nevertheless, it is a type worth preserving.. going back to the early times and certain regional dogs in Germany.

by DDR-DSH on 05 April 2010 - 18:04

Now that I look back on it, I have been thinking that the old breed wardens and presidents in Germany were right about one thing, for sure.. For many years, they did not have a Sieger title awarded in the national competition. The simple reason is that they wanted to preserve genetic diversity in the breed. They did not want all the breeders running to one dog or one bloodline. Under public pressure, they relented and named Dick vom Adeloga as Sieger, and that has stuck. Sure enough, the gene pool has become considerably narrowed and much diversity lost. If it were not for the working dog breeders and the availability of DDR and Czech dogs, all of our dogs would be the same.. as if cut out by cookie cutters!

by Mystere on 05 April 2010 - 19:04

DDR-DSH:

Preach it!! Absolutely spot on!!

"Back in that time, most of the American breeders were still using lines that went back to top quality imports in the first and second generations. The American breeders soon after all went after GV Ch Lance of Fran-Jo and narrowed the gene pool WAY too much, all looking for extremely angulated dogs with a lot of "side-movement". This was a big mistake, IMO.
Not long after that, The W. Germans made the very SAME mistake by all running to the Canto / Quanto lines. Both American and W. German breeders ended up with a very pretty and consistent looking dog, and lost a lot of the genetic diversity they used to have.. "

by Pharaoh on 05 April 2010 - 21:04

Not all American breeders went for that garbage.

Breeders on this board, breed off of import lines. If they keep breeding, their dogs are "American".

Imagining that all breeders in America turned out the fashion victims of the show lines is just wrong. There are many breeders not connected with either Schutzhund or the American showlines who never lost their way. They got old and went out of business. They produced solid termperaments and sound dogs.

Now, as a result of this post, I will get many PM's from the lost souls still searching for David bloodlines, or Desert dogs, Schulenhaus, Rainbow Shepherds, von Simon, Skytrackers, Elysian, Falconers and Hollgarn etc. They are looking because they got great solid dogs and they have no interest in the showlines.

Today, the place to look is breeders sticking to German style working lines who are not producing Hyper Drives who cannot live in a normal household.

Michele

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