starting protection work/schutzhund! - Page 3

See,  that's more information and now offers background for more useful input.  I don't, or at least I think I don't, know Ron and I certainly did not know him from his chosen screen name or what breed of dog or what  level of experience he has.  Now that I know, opinions can be formulated.  Isn't this better when we all get along?  Now we can participate in an intelligent informative discussion.  Now let's have a big hug.

I also know he is a helper and well experienced. I also realized he likely was trying to see if we can start a thread without the usual village idiots coming to spoil it.   I wrote this to him privately as how I do things:

I wanted to just PM you with my suggestion. I would start this dog as if he were a pup, on a rag, and then move up gradually, making sure that you can direct his drives when ready and get good solid bites always. I have watched too many older dogs started directly on the sleeve and often the end result is the dog does not bite well because the work has tried to do too much, too soon. In a rare dog who has a full grip always, this might not be an issue, but in many dogs, even if the bite is pretty good, over time it degenerates because there are so many other learning goals being sought.

I start all dogs as if they were pups. I make sure I give enough sessions to be sure that what I am watching is solid over the course of several sessions before I move on to the next tug, sleeve, rag, bite developer or whatever.

And I also knew that when he answered me, as he already has, he would tell me this is how he works as well.

Mystere.. My bad. :P
Didn't know he was a helper, sounded like someone was just getting into the sport and wanted some helpful advice.

Good luck with your dog.
-Emily.

http://www.youtube.com/user/VitGlisnik#p/u/36/bnYcCV-N71Y
http://www.youtube.com/user/VitGlisnik#p/u/9/LNHEJudDQVg

i am sharing these links as an example of the valuable work that can be done with a rag.  if you care to explore further on the same you-tube channel, you will also find other videos using a bite wedge and ofcourse, many others using a traditional sleeve.  i think it is a pity so many folks give up the rag and the wedge after the dog matures and achieves titles.  both are very useful tools and can be incorporated in working prey and defense.
pjp
*****here's one of a long bite with pillow/wedge.
http://www.youtube.com/user/VitGlisnik#p/u/79/3bn73EB_l8Y

Once again Bob McClown showing that " thurd graid edukashun" :

McClown wrote:
 This is a tough one to answer with the info given,but for my self I guess I,d like to see how he responds to a new helper with out a sleeve see how he reacts to just the man with no distractions not a bunch of heavy handed stuff just prey movements and see how the dog reacts to it, before I would start working protection things Does he look for a sleeve or toy? does he focus on the man to initiate movement I,d definitely want to see how he had been worked prier to myself.

the word is prior not prier asshole!

McClown wrote:
I like to work with the puppies personely as maiking them bark at the man first then after the barking the helper produces the rag the helper must be very animated and know how to make the puppy feel strong. after that ponit then i let the helper produce the rag and play with the pups that way.

the word is personally , the next word is making, and aslo point not ponit! boy did you make it to the third grade fat fuck?

McClown wrote:
And I believe when Albert postulated the theory of relativity he would not use your parents being cousins as a example of what he ment?

once again asshole the word is meant I think the twinlies are effecting your brain slow down your blood sugar must be out of wack

MCClown wrote:
He did say for "sport" I personnely hate that word

once again idiot the word is personally


every time you post you show how stupid you really are lets face it everyone who has seen your disgusting fat ass knows you cant work puppies you would step on one and kill it you are too fat and too stupid fuck face!

How do you like me behaving like you McClown or Mckown?

Eric

Eric:

My friend,Are you still here? I thought you took your toys and left.

Sorry if my poor spelling abilities offend you. and as to the way you behave? I expect no more of you. Your pretty much face value.

                                                                                                Yours forever Bob McKown 

for those interested in the pedigree of the dog in question...http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/597370.html

Hey Eric...Bob...go fight somewhere else:-)

Judron:

                  I do apologize for your thread being high jacked.

Scenario: 18 month old male....has bitten a sleeve 3 times in prey. How would you start this dog in protection for the sport of schutzhund! He is not afraid of body contact.....has nice grips...he has never been worked by a stranger....has never done a courage test. At 18 months, what are the things you would want this male to show? I'm sure he'll bark....!

Ron, When ever I have someone bring a young puppy out (yes I still consider 18 month young) as a helper, I want to see how the dog reacts to me for the first time. First by me just standing there. Then I do some prey movement, side to side, zig-zag et. I am looking to see if the dog fires up, is he interested etc, how does he react to me? Then if I can get responses then a bite. I want to see initial bite without stress. Depending on the how the dog reacted... lets say he was good drive, barked, gave good grip then the next time, I may square up to him more... more pressure, more defense. I am looking for the dogs reaction. His eyes, ears, boddy language, bark. How is he handling the stress. Can I walk into him square? At anytime I detect an unsureness I go back to prey. Over this first time I want to see the dogs limits. I want to know how far can I push him and still maintain confidence and drive. These are the building blocks. From there I work with what the dog has. Even in police work you never just send a new dog in, you build confidence and drive. My male for example, has plenty of defense his lines are full of it. So we worked on a lot of prey, problem is with prey he over stims and locks up, so we worked grips and then when he was over year and we had great drive, grips and he was confident... we started some heavy civil and brought out his bark. He is very clear headed even with defense so he comes in very defensive, deep bark, ready to bite. He then settles in to nice bark but always ready. We have been able to use both drives as I believe a dog should have a nice 50:50 type. Now when he is pressured he grips harder and shows nice fight drive, but he is always with control. I have been very happy with where he is. My helper/TD is Eric Beasley and between him and my first mentor Al Govednik I learned a lot of reading the dog. As a helper you need to know what buttons to push and how far you can take it. As a handler I want the helper to know what is expected. This is how I would handle the scenario and would love to hear how others would approach it. Never stop learning. Learn from everyone and take the parts you want and make it your own.

I thought that was the dog you were talking about.  I haven't seen his littermate again so have not been able to send you a picture.  I will when I get one though.  Please keep updating his progress.