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by LAVK-9 on 14 March 2010 - 02:03
I have a question for you. Since you know about KNPV and police dog training I was wondering....If a dog was trained for KNPV the dog should out when asked right? Now if that dog is being used for a police dog the "out" is very important right? Or does it no matter anymore if police dogs don't out? ALSO if the dog is trained KNPV shouldn't they have real good obedience? I know the few videos I have seen it was great to watch them work and the control they had. I was going to post a clip but out of the respect to the K-9 officers I am refraining from doing so. It was killing me to watch I am sure it would send you over the edge.lol Granted the one dog was kinda new but still. I have to say I did have fun taking a bite on the sleeve today and laying a track for the K-9 officers. It was just killing me the lack of obedience and no outs. They couldn't even take the toy from the dog.My thought is if you can't even have your dog out a toy...how the hell are you going to have an out when that dog is on the street and it is a real bite? Thanks in advance
~L~
~L~
by 4pack on 14 March 2010 - 02:03
How old are these dogs and how far into their training? You said trained in...but not titled. Could be they haven't worked up to the outs yet. My dog was 2yrs old before we really got serious about outs on a bite, the toy was another story. That was puppy stuff but everybody does stuff their own way.
by buckeyefan gsd on 14 March 2010 - 02:03
gard may have a good answer
does he still post here?
does he still post here?
by LAVK-9 on 14 March 2010 - 03:03
4Pack- This is a Dog that is between 2-4.I believe he was titled. My guess is maybe he didn't do well and that is why they sold him to the PD here. It should know the out. They train and do things differently then how I was trained to train K-9s. When they went to the handler they knew the "out". Granted these dogs are being trained by the officers....not a trainer. I would just think that it would be a liability if a dog isn't under control.When the drug or bomb searches were done they were sent off leash.I could see the dogs were getting tired and blowing things off. I think that if it was done with a bit more control...as in a systomatic search...on leash with the officer taking the dog around the place (an abandoned house) then the dog would be more focused instead of running around like a nut acting as though it was just play time. Also when searching for bombs...I think I would want the dog on a leash under control so it didn't jump on the bomb by accident. I was just watching the clips shaking my head at the flanking the dog to out it.
by yoshy on 14 March 2010 - 03:03
Lauren,
It has been my experience with our local Leo's that they do not want the dogs outing. They do not want a case where the dog anicipates or outs for any reason other than the handler removing the dog. This is for the safety of the all officers including the dog. This is the reason I have been given by multiple k9 units I have been around.
Jim may have a different veiws as he seems to be in an unit that takes their training a bit more serious and have the knowledge to handle more efficiently.
Also,
Obedience- I do not see sport obedience to be considered the same as functional obedience.
Such as the focus heel. In the real world I do not want a dog stairing into my eyes as we walk off a cliff. I want an attentive heel checking his/her position in relevance to my left or right leg as well as scanning our surroundings. Yes heel can be a right leg too however normally assigned a different comman such as "right". I want an aware dog who is attentive to me but also concious of his/her surroundings in all facets that is 100% reliable.
Also obedience goes far beyond just heel sit down come etc... Tactical movements, directional training, retrieves,placements, etc.... All the way as far as dog who you can direct at extreme distances, that have to place obects on cars and such. I have seen this done by military k-9's.
This is why most functional units do not want the flashy obedience you see in sport. They want a functional dog.
However some units may not have the expertise or desire to reach the potential of many of these dogs their are some that can and do. However many In my area do not.
We are talking years to train sufficent dogs in all of these areas and special dogs with extremely commited handlers to get to that level. Which I regret to say are only a percentage out there that is less than it could be.
It has been my experience with our local Leo's that they do not want the dogs outing. They do not want a case where the dog anicipates or outs for any reason other than the handler removing the dog. This is for the safety of the all officers including the dog. This is the reason I have been given by multiple k9 units I have been around.
Jim may have a different veiws as he seems to be in an unit that takes their training a bit more serious and have the knowledge to handle more efficiently.
Also,
Obedience- I do not see sport obedience to be considered the same as functional obedience.
Such as the focus heel. In the real world I do not want a dog stairing into my eyes as we walk off a cliff. I want an attentive heel checking his/her position in relevance to my left or right leg as well as scanning our surroundings. Yes heel can be a right leg too however normally assigned a different comman such as "right". I want an aware dog who is attentive to me but also concious of his/her surroundings in all facets that is 100% reliable.
Also obedience goes far beyond just heel sit down come etc... Tactical movements, directional training, retrieves,placements, etc.... All the way as far as dog who you can direct at extreme distances, that have to place obects on cars and such. I have seen this done by military k-9's.
This is why most functional units do not want the flashy obedience you see in sport. They want a functional dog.
However some units may not have the expertise or desire to reach the potential of many of these dogs their are some that can and do. However many In my area do not.
We are talking years to train sufficent dogs in all of these areas and special dogs with extremely commited handlers to get to that level. Which I regret to say are only a percentage out there that is less than it could be.
by Slamdunc on 14 March 2010 - 03:03
LavK-9,
Ok, there are many well trained great KNPV dogs. There are excellent videos of these dogs available and they are quite impressive. There are also many great videos of SchH trained dogs and PSA dogs doing excellent bite work and obedience. There are also many great videos of real police dogs in action. This does not mean that every KNPV, SchH, PSA or even Police K9 is great.
This week I trained with some high end imported dogs that are being trained as very specialized MWD's. Awesome Dutch Shepherds and Malis. Some of the dogs were KNPV titled, all hand picked in Europe and prices started around $10,000. These are not sport dog rejects. Were they completely trained, hell no. Could they out, yes, would they? Maybe.
You wrote:
Granted the one dog was kinda new but still. I have to say I did have fun taking a bite on the sleeve today and laying a track for the K-9 officers. It was just killing me the lack of obedience and no outs. They couldn't even take the toy from the dog.My thought is if you can't even have your dog out a toy...how the hell are you going to have an out when that dog is on the street and it is a real bite?
New dogs need to have a good handler and bond with that handler. They need to be well trained and their training needs to at least match if not exceed the training they received overseas. There is a person on the PDB who bought an IPO 3 bitch and wants to title the dog in SchH, they will remain nameless. I can almost guarantee the dogs scores drop dramatically with the new handler even though the dog was previously expertly trained and handled. New dogs need to learn to respect their new handler and want to work for the new handler.
I knew a guy who trained service dogs for the blind and handicapped. He could expertly train a dog to do many tasks, he is one of the best in the US. He often said that if the new owner didn't maintain the training the dog would lose it quickly.
Regarding the out, you are correct. If the handler can not make the dog out a toy there is no way the dog will out on a real bite. The handler will be forced to "lift" the dog off. Fundamentally, it boils down to obedience. If the obedience is crappy, the control in bite work will be crappy. This goes for sport dogs and Police dogs.
The out is not as critical for a police dog as it is for a sport dog. A dog can be made to out a real bite on the street, it can not be forced to out a bite in a competition. The actual engagement and fight, IMHO is more critical for a police dog. Now, for the record my dog will engage and will out off a real bite on command. But, there is no automatic out like "sport dogs" have. I originally trained my dog for SchH then converted him to a police dog. I can assure you that no matter what the decoy does, fights or remains completely motionless my dog will not out a suit or a real bite until I tell him to out. The decoy can remain motionless standing or laying down for a long time and my dog will remain on the bite, full and hard. I can down my dog on the decoy or sit my dog while on the bite and he will not out until told to release. This took some retraining and a new command of "hold him". Police dogs shouldn't out until the suspect is compliant and it is safe for the officers and handler.
People need to keep in mind that you can not judge a Police K9 in the same fashion as you judge a sport dog. The rules are different and the training is different. I know some excellent K9 handlers and many even better sport handlers. Except for 1 or 2,
Ok, there are many well trained great KNPV dogs. There are excellent videos of these dogs available and they are quite impressive. There are also many great videos of SchH trained dogs and PSA dogs doing excellent bite work and obedience. There are also many great videos of real police dogs in action. This does not mean that every KNPV, SchH, PSA or even Police K9 is great.
This week I trained with some high end imported dogs that are being trained as very specialized MWD's. Awesome Dutch Shepherds and Malis. Some of the dogs were KNPV titled, all hand picked in Europe and prices started around $10,000. These are not sport dog rejects. Were they completely trained, hell no. Could they out, yes, would they? Maybe.
You wrote:
Granted the one dog was kinda new but still. I have to say I did have fun taking a bite on the sleeve today and laying a track for the K-9 officers. It was just killing me the lack of obedience and no outs. They couldn't even take the toy from the dog.My thought is if you can't even have your dog out a toy...how the hell are you going to have an out when that dog is on the street and it is a real bite?
New dogs need to have a good handler and bond with that handler. They need to be well trained and their training needs to at least match if not exceed the training they received overseas. There is a person on the PDB who bought an IPO 3 bitch and wants to title the dog in SchH, they will remain nameless. I can almost guarantee the dogs scores drop dramatically with the new handler even though the dog was previously expertly trained and handled. New dogs need to learn to respect their new handler and want to work for the new handler.
I knew a guy who trained service dogs for the blind and handicapped. He could expertly train a dog to do many tasks, he is one of the best in the US. He often said that if the new owner didn't maintain the training the dog would lose it quickly.
Regarding the out, you are correct. If the handler can not make the dog out a toy there is no way the dog will out on a real bite. The handler will be forced to "lift" the dog off. Fundamentally, it boils down to obedience. If the obedience is crappy, the control in bite work will be crappy. This goes for sport dogs and Police dogs.
The out is not as critical for a police dog as it is for a sport dog. A dog can be made to out a real bite on the street, it can not be forced to out a bite in a competition. The actual engagement and fight, IMHO is more critical for a police dog. Now, for the record my dog will engage and will out off a real bite on command. But, there is no automatic out like "sport dogs" have. I originally trained my dog for SchH then converted him to a police dog. I can assure you that no matter what the decoy does, fights or remains completely motionless my dog will not out a suit or a real bite until I tell him to out. The decoy can remain motionless standing or laying down for a long time and my dog will remain on the bite, full and hard. I can down my dog on the decoy or sit my dog while on the bite and he will not out until told to release. This took some retraining and a new command of "hold him". Police dogs shouldn't out until the suspect is compliant and it is safe for the officers and handler.
People need to keep in mind that you can not judge a Police K9 in the same fashion as you judge a sport dog. The rules are different and the training is different. I know some excellent K9 handlers and many even better sport handlers. Except for 1 or 2,
by Slamdunc on 14 March 2010 - 03:03
I see a bunch of us posted while I was blabbing on.
Lauren,
regarding the detection work did the handler set out the aids? We will often work our dogs off lead if we set out the aids and know their location. If I set out narcotics for training I may work my dog off lead so I do not influence the dog and cause the alert. This is not unusual when the handler knows where the aid is and doesn't want to inadvertently to key the dog.
If you have videos I'd love to see them and I won't tell Yoshy or 4pack, I promise.
Jim
Lauren,
regarding the detection work did the handler set out the aids? We will often work our dogs off lead if we set out the aids and know their location. If I set out narcotics for training I may work my dog off lead so I do not influence the dog and cause the alert. This is not unusual when the handler knows where the aid is and doesn't want to inadvertently to key the dog.
If you have videos I'd love to see them and I won't tell Yoshy or 4pack, I promise.
Jim
by yoshy on 14 March 2010 - 04:03
stingy jim!!!
funny you mention the line sending cues to the dogs.
I run into that when working initial turns in footstep trackers and such when the handler knows the track. We in-advertantly send many cues to the dogs.
Nice point.
funny you mention the line sending cues to the dogs.
I run into that when working initial turns in footstep trackers and such when the handler knows the track. We in-advertantly send many cues to the dogs.
Nice point.
by Slamdunc on 14 March 2010 - 04:03
Bahhhh. my earlier post got cut off.
People need to keep in mind that you can not judge a Police K9 in the same fashion as you judge a sport dog. The rules are different and the training is different. I know some excellent K9 handlers and many even better sport handlers. Except for 1 or 2, sport handlers I do not know any that can take their sport dog and do my job tonight. On Tuesdays training we did heeling of lead outdoors in a train, with the handler and other officers searching the exterior of buildings and engaging targets with 9MM Simunition rounds, some shoot some no shoot. Then a decoy presented himself firing loud blanks at the handler, each time the handler fired he had to down his dog and engage the target or decoy of lead and the dog had to remain with the handler. When the handler felt it was safe for the dog he had to send his dog on the decoy. Not an easy task to shoot accurately and keep control of your dog. It was good training. Later we did building clearing with Simunition and the dogs. It is interesting to see the reaction of dog and handler in a shoot out in a hallway or room. The dogs were muzzled and there was no equipment to key on, I have a big cut on the bridge of my nose from muzzle fighting one of the dogs while trying to shoot the handler.
In our K9 unit we have IMO several excellent cops who are also very good handlers. To be an effective K9 handler, you must first be a great cop with really good instincts, a good work ethic and really enjoy enjoy the job. An average handler who excels at Police work will be an excellent K9 Officer. We have one handler who IMHO is an ok cop and a mediocre dog handler. Lucky for him he has a super dog. This guy is not a go getter, not proactive and not the hardest worker, merely average IMO. Myself and several others have more apprehensions individually last month than he had all of last year. He doesn't understand the criminal mindset, lacks the initiative to want to chase bad guys and is a marginal handler. He just doesn't seem to get it and pales in comparison to the rest of the unit. I know because I do the monthly stats for the unit. Perhaps that is how some other K9 units operate and will settle for guys like him, we don't we push him. The majority of us want to constantly improve with our dogs and consistently challenge each other to do more and better.
But even our worst handler can out their dog off a toy or a bite. I think it boils down to obedience and training. With out fundamentally good obedience there will never be good control in the bite work. This is one area where K9 guys can learn a lot from sport people. The control and obedience that most people expect from their sport dogs is far greater than some K9 handlers expect from their work dogs.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
People need to keep in mind that you can not judge a Police K9 in the same fashion as you judge a sport dog. The rules are different and the training is different. I know some excellent K9 handlers and many even better sport handlers. Except for 1 or 2, sport handlers I do not know any that can take their sport dog and do my job tonight. On Tuesdays training we did heeling of lead outdoors in a train, with the handler and other officers searching the exterior of buildings and engaging targets with 9MM Simunition rounds, some shoot some no shoot. Then a decoy presented himself firing loud blanks at the handler, each time the handler fired he had to down his dog and engage the target or decoy of lead and the dog had to remain with the handler. When the handler felt it was safe for the dog he had to send his dog on the decoy. Not an easy task to shoot accurately and keep control of your dog. It was good training. Later we did building clearing with Simunition and the dogs. It is interesting to see the reaction of dog and handler in a shoot out in a hallway or room. The dogs were muzzled and there was no equipment to key on, I have a big cut on the bridge of my nose from muzzle fighting one of the dogs while trying to shoot the handler.
In our K9 unit we have IMO several excellent cops who are also very good handlers. To be an effective K9 handler, you must first be a great cop with really good instincts, a good work ethic and really enjoy enjoy the job. An average handler who excels at Police work will be an excellent K9 Officer. We have one handler who IMHO is an ok cop and a mediocre dog handler. Lucky for him he has a super dog. This guy is not a go getter, not proactive and not the hardest worker, merely average IMO. Myself and several others have more apprehensions individually last month than he had all of last year. He doesn't understand the criminal mindset, lacks the initiative to want to chase bad guys and is a marginal handler. He just doesn't seem to get it and pales in comparison to the rest of the unit. I know because I do the monthly stats for the unit. Perhaps that is how some other K9 units operate and will settle for guys like him, we don't we push him. The majority of us want to constantly improve with our dogs and consistently challenge each other to do more and better.
But even our worst handler can out their dog off a toy or a bite. I think it boils down to obedience and training. With out fundamentally good obedience there will never be good control in the bite work. This is one area where K9 guys can learn a lot from sport people. The control and obedience that most people expect from their sport dogs is far greater than some K9 handlers expect from their work dogs.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
by LAVK-9 on 14 March 2010 - 04:03
regarding the detection work did the handler set out the aids? We will often work our dogs off lead if we set out the aids and know their location. If I set out narcotics for training I may work my dog off lead so I do not influence the dog and cause the alert. This is not unusual when the handler knows where the aid is and doesn't want to inadvertently want to key the dog.
One of the officers set out the aids. The others didn't know where things were but if the dog didn't find it then they told them.So the first guy went in there not knowing and still had his dog off leash and running about leaving the search area etc. Maybe if it were a real search it would be different but things in training carry over to real life. ie: if you never make your dog actually sit or down in training...don't expect it in real life situation. There arer places that if I hid the drugs and they didn't know...the way they did the search...the dogs would have passed it by. They blew off high areas(the dogs did and the handlers never made them bother with it)
As far as the obedience...I wasn't talking that the dog should have a SchH heel looking at the handler.It heeled out in front of him.If a left turn was made he would have tripped on his dog.
Tracking my friend: The handler wasn't watching the dogs signs.I called it as to why the dog was going the way it was.Finally they found my friend. As far as finding me....if i wasn't wearing yellow and the officer couldn't see me...they would have passed right by me. I left a piece of cloth with my sent on it at the start.They wanted them at the turns as well. I am use to my dog and the dogs I have trained....the sent article or bait when first started is small.SO I tore a small piece off and tied it on a rock that I was carrying through to the turn. I guess that wasn't enough. The dog barely had it's nose to the ground if at all.I was walking though dirt and mud you could see my tracks.I was able to see them and the dog was as though he was going on an afternoon walk. No care about finding me. These dogs are on the street...no bad guy is going to be that nice and leave things telling the dog where to go.
One of the officers set out the aids. The others didn't know where things were but if the dog didn't find it then they told them.So the first guy went in there not knowing and still had his dog off leash and running about leaving the search area etc. Maybe if it were a real search it would be different but things in training carry over to real life. ie: if you never make your dog actually sit or down in training...don't expect it in real life situation. There arer places that if I hid the drugs and they didn't know...the way they did the search...the dogs would have passed it by. They blew off high areas(the dogs did and the handlers never made them bother with it)
As far as the obedience...I wasn't talking that the dog should have a SchH heel looking at the handler.It heeled out in front of him.If a left turn was made he would have tripped on his dog.
Tracking my friend: The handler wasn't watching the dogs signs.I called it as to why the dog was going the way it was.Finally they found my friend. As far as finding me....if i wasn't wearing yellow and the officer couldn't see me...they would have passed right by me. I left a piece of cloth with my sent on it at the start.They wanted them at the turns as well. I am use to my dog and the dogs I have trained....the sent article or bait when first started is small.SO I tore a small piece off and tied it on a rock that I was carrying through to the turn. I guess that wasn't enough. The dog barely had it's nose to the ground if at all.I was walking though dirt and mud you could see my tracks.I was able to see them and the dog was as though he was going on an afternoon walk. No care about finding me. These dogs are on the street...no bad guy is going to be that nice and leave things telling the dog where to go.
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