Mishandled breeding...opinions please - Page 1

I like for those of you who read this board to read this carefully and give your feedback.

I have a nice untitled female that I decided to breed to a titled imported male. I contacted the man handling the stud dog (not his) ask for his requirements. I got all the paper work in order and took my female to him on the7th day of her cycle. This was a Wednesday. We tried the male but knew we were early. He agreed to keep her until she was ready...we drove 185 miles. We went home. I called a couple of days later and he said she still wasn't quite ready. He thought she might be ready by the weekend...on Saturday he ran a cytology test and said she was 60%...on Sunday he said he thought she might have some constriction of some sort as the male could not enter her. He suggested we AI her....I gave him the go ahead to proceed. On Monday he calls and tells me that she is all finished....I thought he meant he'd done the AI...but no he said she is out of heat! This would have been her 11day. He said he'd had a progesterone test done and she was out of heat. I am not an expert however it didn't make sense to me. We told him we would pick her up the next day. I also had another female that I was taking to another breeder that works for a Canine reproduction specialist, within short driving distance of where the first female was. When I arrived to pick up my female I was told that there is something wrong with her and that his vet couldn't even pass a swab in. I told him I was going to see a vet when I left and would have her checked out...earlier when I talked to him by phone he suggested I wait until she was completely out of her cycle. It made more sense to check her asap. He gave me an invoice dated 03-08 (the day before I picked her up...the day he called and said she is out of heat) with the progesterone test, results and charges...results: C4....greater than 5.

We left drove directly to the specialist office. They drew blood for a progesterone test and sent it out to a lab. The vet checked my female and found she did have a constriction which she described as a ring. She said it was a simple procedure and could do it then. We still had a long drive back home so made arrangements to bring her back for the procedure. She examined the female and was able to completely insert a finger (the female flagged). The results came back on the test today  and the female was at prime time to breed on Monday 03-08!

I then called the other lab (the one the handler used) and ask if someone could explain the results of a progesterone test for me...I read the information from their own invoice C4 greater than 5.....she person ask me to wait till she went to the back to read the chart...she came back and said "breed immediately". This same invoice had a charge for a cytology test on the same day that said she was out of heat....what sense does that make? I was told the cytology test was given three days prior to that and at that time she was about 60%. Now bear in mind that I was told by the handler that the pergesterone test is the one they rely on and is most accurate.

Now consider that I drove a total of 740 miles, fuel cost, lab cost and am left with no breeding. If for whatever reason he decided it didn't want to breed my female he could have at least not waited until she was completely out of heat. This is my first breeding of this female she will turn 4 this year. I wonder what the owner of the stud dog would think of the was this man handled this breeding. Yes, he did refund my stud fee minus the lab fees....I much rather have gone home with a bred female!

A simple pre-breeding exam of the bitch by *your* vet, done before she even came in season, would have identified the stricture before you even hauled your bitch out to the stud and prevented all this aggravation for all the parties involved.  Consider it a lesson learned.

Why didn't you start progesterone testing as soon as she came into heat? Losing money is a part of breeding. Like hexe said, consider it a lesson in what not to do next time.

Sometimes when you take bitches to be bred they go into a holding pattern with their cycles and it is very difficult to determine when they are ready to be bred even with all the testing.  Some bitches  just plain don't want to let the male breed them, some bitches prefer to choose their own mates;  the list is endless.  But I agree with above post, a simple vet check by your vet would have eliminated this whole problem. 

I would probably choose another stud dog for her next breeding.

You can consider yourself lucky that these are all the costs you incurred. I would love to trait places with you. Don't complain. The keeper of the stud dog did everything he could have done. The female is your responsibility, not his.
My female is still in Germany, bred to two different males, had an open pyometra which was treated successfully (in Germany) and stayed emtpy again. The monthly boarding fee is very reasonable which amounts to about $ 200 a month, vet costs, stud fees (I lost the fee for the first male since he has been sold to China now), and transportation costs. We are undecided if we should continue to leave her there (and pay) or bring her home empty. I trust the German vets a lot more than the ones over here (out of a long time of experience). But our girl has been gone for two years now (including the time to get her titled and breed surveyed). Funny (or sadly?), I received a notice from the postal service yesterday that there is a registered letter waiting for me from Germany (which is the stud certificate certified by the SV) and it is useless to me now!
Welcome to the world of breeding (unless people resort to BYB)! This is what puppy buyers often do not realize!
Sorry for venting. I do not mean to criticize you.
But just chalk that little bit of expense up to experience and have better luck next time. And do not blame the handler of the stud dog!
Chris

Hi, Paj.
I have had two similar situations (horses) that I was able to fix.  Here is how it went.
I got two high end mare both under 5000.00 (both available before found sterile for 20-50 thou) because they were hard to breed or sterile.  I had not planned on breeding one, but had hopes of embryo transferral on the other.  Both were VERY good examples of their AQHA heritage and very worthy of having offspring.  Anyway, I tried with the one mare for 11 years to no avail.  When my grandmother was making plans for her horses because of her impending death, I was asked to care for her prized stallion, a mare and two babies.  I drove to NY to get the micro herd.  Grandma ALWAYS kept her animals in a natural herd because she believed natural was better.  When I got home, I unloaded the herd and they set off on their new lives with my two STERILE mares.  About 6 months later the racehorse had become slower on her pattern so I took her in and the vet who I got the horse from almost started to cry, she was PREGNANT.  Not long after that I took the other mare that I REALLY wanted a baby out of in to start the process of ET.  Well, vet said that wouldn't be necessary as she was bred as well.  I then started to investigate just WHAT HAPPENED.  My vet said that some times animals have tight follicles that make it hard to breed the first time.  Mix in breeding in a unfamiliar area and that just adds more stress to the already sensitive animal.  What changed with BOTH mares was that they got to live with this stallion for months.  They kicked him he would nibble their necks.  It's funny, but he ROMANCED them and made them feel more relaxed and they both took.  Now they breed very easily, it was just that first time to get them loosened up that was the trick.
On my dog: She had one puppy then was sold.  Then new breeder tried again and no puppies.  I got her, brought her into our home with a male and they lived together for 3 months before she came into heat.  She bred a few times and I AI a few times and I had 10 puppies the first time.  The second and last time they naturally bred and had 7 total puppies.
I would ask, is there a way to get a male or to lease a male to live with you and your dog so that she gets comfortable with him. 
Hope this helps you.

W

From the stud owners' point of view, I have a similar experience happening now.  Female is titled, nice bloodlines, nice female - owner drove her all the way from Georgia (13 hour drive) to drop her off about 6 months ago - she was in heat - male not too interested - thought she was early - not a lot of swelling, still bleeding - every day for a few days, the same.  she woudln't stand, stud dog only moderately interested - not a lot of swelling, still bleeding.   I finally got worried, collected the  male and AI'd her just in case.  During the AI I found a stricture, or she was just built so small that the male would never have been able to breed her naturally (my finger didn't even fit in there to guide the pipette)   Finally I took her to the vet for progesterone and she had already ovulated.  I hoped that the one AI would have taken, but it didn't. 

The owner took her to a vet down in GA who confirmed the stricture and told him she would "probably loosen up" but may need to AI her.  So, he just brought her back the other day, supposedly day 7 - now she is standing/flagging and male is interested, but when he even touches her she flips out screaming.  I'm taking her to get progesterone tested today - owner doesn't want the vet to AI her because he doesn't want to pay a lot of vet bills.  So I'm doing a guessing game here again - is she ready?  Is she late?  Why is she standing/flagging and then flipping out screaming when the stud dog gets down to business?  He is interested but not "terribly so" - not interested in forcing the issue when she tells him "no".   So I'll do my best and AI her again and at least I know the problem now (from the previous experience) so know she may not swell and will still be bleeding after she's ovulated - will she get pregnant?  If she were my dog I'd be paying for the vet to figure it all out and do the timing (every other day) and breeding. 

Would be a shame for the owner to make two trips from GA for nothing. 

I'm not planning on refunding the stud fee either.  I've done plenty of work for it, trying to get this female bred!  (However of course he can continue to try to breed her or another female for the same stud fee, I guarantee live healthy puppies).

molly

Here is my 2c's for the day.

We do not want our GSDs becoming like the English Bulldogs that have to be AI and C-sectioned every litter. A healthy normal bitch should have NORMAL hormones, and a NORMAL shapped V-jay and be able to Free whelp her puppies and care for them.

If you breed a female with an abnormal V-jay you are bound to pass it along to her daughters, and her son's will pass it to there daughters.. Is that what you want for the Future ??

Whisper

Its pritty normal wenn a female gonna be mated for the first time that there is a ring
Normaly wenn the male stud the female he break the ring some male owners break the ring before the male studs
Some female owners let there Vet do that

I really dont understand that you did no bloodtest its not ok to go urly to a male and let the desision over to the male
If she is ready or not

And leaving your female behind in strange hands for such a importend thing as mating NO WAY i think that is ok
Better take a male close or a hotel and keep the hole adveture in your own hands 
And dont let the female out of your eyes your here owner and she trust you

So nest time Bloodtest and stay with your female and you will get it done

Barbara