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by Donald Harris on 15 February 2010 - 20:02
I was looking at a very reputable breeders website and one of her dogs said OFA pending. So I asked what his results were and this is what I got in return........
(ME) We were looking at (dog's name) on your page. He looks great but have his hips and elbows been evaluated yet?
(BREEDER) Hi
I have his xrays. He has been breed for 4 yrs. about a 100 pups.
One weird elbow and one ify hip nothing the dog can't live with,
just not the best.
Otherwise the rest are fine.
That's his record.
(ME) ok. your site says ofa pending. Has ofa evaluated them yet? if so then what were his ratings from ofa? Thanks
(BREEDER) No it hasn't been done
(ME) then why would you breed him if ofa hasnt cleared his hips? you said yourself that one hip and elbow is ify. shouldnt we be trying to improve the breed and not breed dysplastic dogs?
(BREEDER) My record is very good and I don't lie about what my dogs do
like other breeders. (dogs name) record is good % wise.
(dogs name) is even better with no bad elbows or hips.
I know plenty of people with 2 OFA good dogs and the
litter was HD.
If you want to base everything on OFA you can
but I have had dogs with OFA go good only for them to
be very dysplastic.
Genetics and the vertical pedigree are what tell more
about the dogs.
(ME) You say you dont lie but your website says Xrays look great. Then thats a lie because you clearly stated below that he has one weird elbow and one ify hip and your website also says OFA pending. But below you say (No it hasnt been done). You should tell all your new puppy owners this. But thats OK because You dont lie like other breeders. Yeah right
okay so now she has changed her story-
(Breeder) Maybe I needed to be clearer he produced the weird elbow
and hip. So 2 pups come up with a dysplastic issue and
have since been replaced with one issues.
I could believe this but I asked her above- (ME) then why would you breed him if ofa hasnt cleared his hips? you said yourself that one hip and elbow is ify. shouldnt we be trying to improve the breed and not breed dysplastic dogs?
and then she replied-(BREEDER) My record is very good and I don't lie about what my dogs do
like other breeders. (dogs name) record is good % wise.
(dogs name) is even better with no bad elbows or hips.
I know plenty of people with 2 OFA good dogs and the
litter was HD.
If you want to base everything on OFA you can
but I have had dogs with OFA go good only for them to
be very dysplastic.
Genetics and the vertical pedigree are what tell more
about the dogs.
so is she just trying to cover up her lie or is she telling the truth? Her statement could go either way. My first thought would be the sire has a bad hip and elbow but then after she replied and a reader stated the same thing I dont know what to think.
I KNOW THIS WILL CAUSE A LOT OF DRAMA ON HERE BUT I NEED TO KNOW IF I'M RIGHT OR IF THIS BREEDER IS RIGHT. PLEASE EVERYONE PUT YOUR INFO IN. KEEP IN MIND HER WEBSITE SAYS THAT THIS DOG PRODUCES HIS TEMPERAMENT AND HIPS IN HIS PUPS. BUT HE HAS A IFY HIP AND WEIRD ELBOW AND THE SITE ALSO SAYS OFA PENDING BUT SHE CLEARLY STATED NO IT HASNT BEEN DONE. I HAVE LEFT OUT ALL NAMES IN THIS TO PROTECT THE BREEDER. PLEASE DONT ASK WHO THIS BREEDER IS AS I WILL NOT SAY.
Think of it this way - Would you buy a puppy from a dog like this?
(ME) We were looking at (dog's name) on your page. He looks great but have his hips and elbows been evaluated yet?
(BREEDER) Hi
I have his xrays. He has been breed for 4 yrs. about a 100 pups.
One weird elbow and one ify hip nothing the dog can't live with,
just not the best.
Otherwise the rest are fine.
That's his record.
(ME) ok. your site says ofa pending. Has ofa evaluated them yet? if so then what were his ratings from ofa? Thanks
(BREEDER) No it hasn't been done
(ME) then why would you breed him if ofa hasnt cleared his hips? you said yourself that one hip and elbow is ify. shouldnt we be trying to improve the breed and not breed dysplastic dogs?
(BREEDER) My record is very good and I don't lie about what my dogs do
like other breeders. (dogs name) record is good % wise.
(dogs name) is even better with no bad elbows or hips.
I know plenty of people with 2 OFA good dogs and the
litter was HD.
If you want to base everything on OFA you can
but I have had dogs with OFA go good only for them to
be very dysplastic.
Genetics and the vertical pedigree are what tell more
about the dogs.
(ME) You say you dont lie but your website says Xrays look great. Then thats a lie because you clearly stated below that he has one weird elbow and one ify hip and your website also says OFA pending. But below you say (No it hasnt been done). You should tell all your new puppy owners this. But thats OK because You dont lie like other breeders. Yeah right
okay so now she has changed her story-
(Breeder) Maybe I needed to be clearer he produced the weird elbow
and hip. So 2 pups come up with a dysplastic issue and
have since been replaced with one issues.
I could believe this but I asked her above- (ME) then why would you breed him if ofa hasnt cleared his hips? you said yourself that one hip and elbow is ify. shouldnt we be trying to improve the breed and not breed dysplastic dogs?
and then she replied-(BREEDER) My record is very good and I don't lie about what my dogs do
like other breeders. (dogs name) record is good % wise.
(dogs name) is even better with no bad elbows or hips.
I know plenty of people with 2 OFA good dogs and the
litter was HD.
If you want to base everything on OFA you can
but I have had dogs with OFA go good only for them to
be very dysplastic.
Genetics and the vertical pedigree are what tell more
about the dogs.
so is she just trying to cover up her lie or is she telling the truth? Her statement could go either way. My first thought would be the sire has a bad hip and elbow but then after she replied and a reader stated the same thing I dont know what to think.
I KNOW THIS WILL CAUSE A LOT OF DRAMA ON HERE BUT I NEED TO KNOW IF I'M RIGHT OR IF THIS BREEDER IS RIGHT. PLEASE EVERYONE PUT YOUR INFO IN. KEEP IN MIND HER WEBSITE SAYS THAT THIS DOG PRODUCES HIS TEMPERAMENT AND HIPS IN HIS PUPS. BUT HE HAS A IFY HIP AND WEIRD ELBOW AND THE SITE ALSO SAYS OFA PENDING BUT SHE CLEARLY STATED NO IT HASNT BEEN DONE. I HAVE LEFT OUT ALL NAMES IN THIS TO PROTECT THE BREEDER. PLEASE DONT ASK WHO THIS BREEDER IS AS I WILL NOT SAY.
Think of it this way - Would you buy a puppy from a dog like this?
by Keith Grossman on 15 February 2010 - 20:02
You're right.
by Phil Behun on 15 February 2010 - 20:02
Run away
by Pharaoh on 15 February 2010 - 21:02
Donald Harris, you are 100% correct.
What is the breeder going to say? There is no excuse that justifies this type of slovenly, irresponsible behavior.
When you see on a website words like "prelim Good" and the female is 3 or 4 years old, there are only two possiblities.
The breeder is too lazy to get it done, too cheap, too busy taking "happy pills" and just can't get going - OR - this is the worst, the breeder did send in the xrays to OFA and the dog FLUNKED. But, too much invested and too many puppies out there.
Or, you may see German imports with "a" Stamps and then as you go through their breeding stock, you will see females with the breeder's kennel name. And, guess what, no OFA's, no titles, no nothing. Importing titled dogs is expensive.
OFA doesn't publish negative reports unless you give them permission.
Always look up a breeder on the OFA lookup, here's the link.
www.offa.org/search.html
Another funny one is you will see a dog with elbow results and no hip results. Guess what that means. Elbows good, hips were bad news and they did not have permission to publish negative results. Nobody xrays the elbows and not the hips.
Just for fun, put in the breeders name in the search and see how many bad hip xrays were published by people collecting on the hip guarantee.
Donald, trust your instincts and run, don't walk. Never look back.
Michele
What is the breeder going to say? There is no excuse that justifies this type of slovenly, irresponsible behavior.
When you see on a website words like "prelim Good" and the female is 3 or 4 years old, there are only two possiblities.
The breeder is too lazy to get it done, too cheap, too busy taking "happy pills" and just can't get going - OR - this is the worst, the breeder did send in the xrays to OFA and the dog FLUNKED. But, too much invested and too many puppies out there.
Or, you may see German imports with "a" Stamps and then as you go through their breeding stock, you will see females with the breeder's kennel name. And, guess what, no OFA's, no titles, no nothing. Importing titled dogs is expensive.
OFA doesn't publish negative reports unless you give them permission.
Always look up a breeder on the OFA lookup, here's the link.
www.offa.org/search.html
Another funny one is you will see a dog with elbow results and no hip results. Guess what that means. Elbows good, hips were bad news and they did not have permission to publish negative results. Nobody xrays the elbows and not the hips.
Just for fun, put in the breeders name in the search and see how many bad hip xrays were published by people collecting on the hip guarantee.
Donald, trust your instincts and run, don't walk. Never look back.
Michele
by eichenluft on 15 February 2010 - 21:02
YIKES!!!!
by cage on 15 February 2010 - 22:02
The breeder says :
"He has been breed for 4 yrs. about a 100 pups.
One weird elbow and one ify hip nothing the dog can't live with,
just not the best.
Otherwise the rest are fine."
Doesn´t that mean that out of the pups this dog has sired 1 has bad elbow and one has bad hip?Or does he refer to his dog by this statement?You know,I´m not a native speaker - just wanna make it clear for me.
"He has been breed for 4 yrs. about a 100 pups.
One weird elbow and one ify hip nothing the dog can't live with,
just not the best.
Otherwise the rest are fine."
Doesn´t that mean that out of the pups this dog has sired 1 has bad elbow and one has bad hip?Or does he refer to his dog by this statement?You know,I´m not a native speaker - just wanna make it clear for me.
by mobjack on 16 February 2010 - 00:02
by Prager on 16 February 2010 - 01:02
Donald if you are so concerned about the hips of the stud then ask her to e mail you a copy.
I would be careful to pass harsh judgments here.
Just because someone is different or has different approach to a problem, does not mean that he/she lies. Also just because someone says bad things about such person does not mean that they are the truth. The stud's one hip is not iffy, but the hip of one pup from this stud out of 100 is iffyy. That is how I read it. Please read it again. Now I am not saying that this statement of the breeder is the truth or not the truth.
One out of 100 is not bad, as matter of fact it is an excellent record, if it is the truth and it could be achieved by LMX-ray system or so called vertical evaluation of the pedigree. I happen to know who you are talking about. And I know that she produces better hips then anybody else I know by using LMX system.
LMX was developed by Tina Barber of Shiloh with a little help from me.
So why not to prove it with OFA records?
OFA is not a panacea. OFA has been around for a while and only improvmenof HD is due to people being wise and not sending poor x rays to OFA> I have witnessed someone who as a test send to OFA 4 times xray of the same dog. Xrays were identical . This person got 4 different results from OFA. From OFA good to mild HD. So why to trust to OFA? Why to trust to anybody!? So there is more then one way to skin a cat.
When you are buying a dog you are looking for a breeder whom you can trust not to lie to you and the hips are only part of what the dog is all about. If you do not trust to such person, then you do not trust him/her and go somewhere else. But it has nothing to do with OFA. I personally do OFA only because people want it .
Prager Hans
I would be careful to pass harsh judgments here.
Just because someone is different or has different approach to a problem, does not mean that he/she lies. Also just because someone says bad things about such person does not mean that they are the truth. The stud's one hip is not iffy, but the hip of one pup from this stud out of 100 is iffyy. That is how I read it. Please read it again. Now I am not saying that this statement of the breeder is the truth or not the truth.
One out of 100 is not bad, as matter of fact it is an excellent record, if it is the truth and it could be achieved by LMX-ray system or so called vertical evaluation of the pedigree. I happen to know who you are talking about. And I know that she produces better hips then anybody else I know by using LMX system.
LMX was developed by Tina Barber of Shiloh with a little help from me.
So why not to prove it with OFA records?
OFA is not a panacea. OFA has been around for a while and only improvmenof HD is due to people being wise and not sending poor x rays to OFA> I have witnessed someone who as a test send to OFA 4 times xray of the same dog. Xrays were identical . This person got 4 different results from OFA. From OFA good to mild HD. So why to trust to OFA? Why to trust to anybody!? So there is more then one way to skin a cat.
When you are buying a dog you are looking for a breeder whom you can trust not to lie to you and the hips are only part of what the dog is all about. If you do not trust to such person, then you do not trust him/her and go somewhere else. But it has nothing to do with OFA. I personally do OFA only because people want it .
Prager Hans
by Jenni78 on 16 February 2010 - 01:02
OFA is not a panacea. I have witnessed someone who as a test send to OFA 4 times xray of the same dog. Xrays were identical . This person got 4 different results from OFA. From OFA good to mild HD. So why to trust to OFA? Why to trust to anybody!? So there is more then one way to skin a cat.
When you are buying a dog you are looking for a breeder whom you can trust not to lie to you and the hips are only part of what the dog is all about. If you do not trust to such person, then you do not trust him/her and go somewhere else. But it has nothing to do with OFA. I personally do OFA only because people want it .
Prager Hans
Thank you, thank you, thank you, for pointing that out about sending the same xray in and getting different results. This is what I was trying to say in one of my posts in the other thread I put up w/the older dog's hips and this seems to be a difficult concept for some to grasp. The OFA is not the be all, end all, and in fact, for my own dogs I don't plan to breed for the public, I DON'T BOTHER! I can read xrays well enough myself to satisfy me. I too, only OFA because people want it. I am not one to be impressed by paper credentials though, so "board certified" and "specialist" don't really "wow" me too much. At the end of the day, they are HUMAN OPINIONS.
When you are buying a dog you are looking for a breeder whom you can trust not to lie to you and the hips are only part of what the dog is all about. If you do not trust to such person, then you do not trust him/her and go somewhere else. But it has nothing to do with OFA. I personally do OFA only because people want it .
Prager Hans
Thank you, thank you, thank you, for pointing that out about sending the same xray in and getting different results. This is what I was trying to say in one of my posts in the other thread I put up w/the older dog's hips and this seems to be a difficult concept for some to grasp. The OFA is not the be all, end all, and in fact, for my own dogs I don't plan to breed for the public, I DON'T BOTHER! I can read xrays well enough myself to satisfy me. I too, only OFA because people want it. I am not one to be impressed by paper credentials though, so "board certified" and "specialist" don't really "wow" me too much. At the end of the day, they are HUMAN OPINIONS.
by Donald Harris on 16 February 2010 - 01:02
Thanks everyone. After reading it again and seing some other users post it seems like she did mean the pups. However it still makes you think because i sent her the email back with what i thought and she didnt deny that until later. I cant argue with Hans. He is the expert in this. But everyone is intitled to their own opinion. After speaking to some more people who personally know this person they have said that the dogs hips are good. So diregard my post.
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