Questions For Those That Prefer To Have Pups Born Outside - Page 1

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by dcacgsd on 14 February 2010 - 18:02

By outside I mean, in some sort of shelter, be it a kennel, dog house, barn ect. Not out in the open with no shelter.
I have been wondering about some things that have been brought up by other people regarding some people preferring their dogs giving birth and rearing the litter outside only. Anyone can PM if you'd rather.

The most important question I have is:
   Do you make sure you are present at the birth of the puppies? Especially with a first time mother?? I feel this is very important. As its been stated elsewhere, anything can happen and even more so with a first time mom. No one can know if the first time mom will eat her pups(as been stated on other threads here) or if she will abandon them or again, lay on them crushing or smothering them. Some of these things I suppose can happen with a veteran mom also but I dont know for sure since I am not a breeder. Also, anyone who breeds their dog on purpose should know when their dog is due to whelp so( I dont mean to sound harsh or anything) no excuses about not knowing the bitch was going to whelp. I know its not exact science as what day she will whelp but if you are going to breed your bitch  and you know that she is pregnant for x amount of days, then you need to be watchful of you bitch showing signs of impending labor/birth. Possibly checking her every day , several times and even thru the night.
  
    I have read about some things that can go very wrong with a bitch giving birth. If you are not planning to be present at the birth(letting nature take its course) I would figure you are willing to lose your bitch and/or all of the puppies in the process. If you are not there and a puppy gets stuck in the birth canal you would not be there to know this. This does happen. What if a pup was born not breathing or the sack does not break?? These are a couple of things that when the breeder/owner is present at birth, can result in saving the pups and mother by taking immmediate action.

Im my opinion, if you consciously breed your bitch, and then dont take the proper measures to insure the survial of mom and pups, then you dont need to be breeding. You are responsible for the bitch and the new pups, not nature. Now, I am not implying that you dont care for your dogs but you need to really think about your bitch, who didnt ask to be a mom, and the pups, who didnt ask to be born.

   Since your pups are born and raised outside the home environment, how often and when do they get human interaction?  If you live in the boondocks with wild animals, what do you do to prevent older, mobile pups from being taken by a wild animal or wandering off into the woods? Do they tend to stay with the pack and their mother?? I know that pups are very curious creatures, this is why I ask.

I know that cats will move their kittens from place to place. Would a dog do this with her pups if not in a confined area? Ive never heard of it happeneng.

If I was to breed a bitch of mine, she would whelp in the house with me right there with my vets number handy, just in case.
I dont agree with letting a dog give birth outside of the house but everyone has their own way of doing things. This is why I ask these questions. I am trying to understand about the other side of  things. I am not judging, well not meaning to anyway, just wanting to know how these things are dealt with.

While I have never bred a dog, I have been present at the birth of several litters, all born inside of the breedes home with a person present. I have never known a breeder to let his/her bitch give birth outside until I joined this forum.

Also, I used to manage a horse breeding farm and slept in the barn all times of the year, sometimes every night for several

by ronny on 14 February 2010 - 19:02

I am breeding GS for 26 years and i allways am with the females wenn they give birth
They get there pups in mine home
I think this feels good for the mom to be and she needs the support to now i am there first time or 5the time

The nights are allways long and then its good that i can watch some telly or be behind the computer with one eye on the female

Mine last litters with diferant females are arround 10 pups pro litter and all survive
Because i will watch them 24/24 So i can do something wenn something go wrong
But sometimes you can watch and be there but sometimes you cant win how good you try

Believe me there were moments that i was happy that i was there

So i agree if your female gets pups you have to get here into the house and be there for here

If your nice fancy house is more importend dont breed

I have out side a nice wooden hause with heating and a nice welping box all very good
But i never ever leave a female in there to give birth
Wenn the pups are arround 4-5 weeks they go to the wooden house in mine garden en they come in 3 times a day
Because i like puppys and that is why i breed
Barbara
www.mirzslot.com

GSDtravels

by GSDtravels on 14 February 2010 - 19:02

This argument is no different than women who choose home birth as opposed to going to a hospital.  Many first-time mothers CHOOSE to give birth at home and some accidentally give birth at home.  The ones who choose, usually have a mid-wife in attendance and although they are schooled on proper delivery methods, complications do arise that would be no problem if the patient instead chose birth in a hospital.  Is the mother whose child dies in a home birth negligent?  Is the hospital a guarantee that the baby would have lived?  Perhaps you would call her negligent, but that is your OPINION and maybe your CHOICE would be different.  Does that mean you would like to make a law stating that all babies must be born in a hospital and/or calling anyone who makes a choice opposite, negligent?  Everybody has their own opinion and beating the subject to death will not change that.

But it seems some think that what's good for the goose, is not good for the gander.

by dcacgsd on 14 February 2010 - 19:02

 Sorry, it cut off the end of my post.

Anway, when we had a mare close to foaling, we slept in the barn to keep watch on the mare. We felt it our responsibility to make sure the foaling went smoothly and to be there just in case something happened. On a few occasions we had to help the mare give birth. My exboss did eventually install a camera in each of the foaling stalls we had so then she could keep watch from inside the house. She was only a minute of two walk from the farmhouse to the barn and I was only 5 minutes drive time away. She would call me, whatever time of day or night when the mare went down to give birth. Mares are particular about foaling. The camera made it easier since if a mare knows she is being watched, she will keep that baby in there and wait until you leave her unattended for a minute to use the bathroom, then she will pop that foal out. That is why we had atleast two people at a time on foal watch.

This leads to another question: do any of you that have your bitches give birth outside have any cameras in the whelping area so you can keep watch while inside your home, just in case there is a problem? This way, you can hopefully get out there and assess the situation and take action, if need be. to ensure the safety of the bitch and the pups.

Again, I am not implying anyting about anyone regarding this subject. I am just trying to get a better understading of why you prefer this method over having them inside to whelp.

Thanks, in advance, for any replies.
Donna

4pack

by 4pack on 14 February 2010 - 19:02

Your story about the mares trying to hold the birth in as long as possible, because someone is watching, is my exact point of why force yourself on them? Some dogs are comfortable with people around at birth others are not. Of course people should be aware of the timeframe a whelp could happen and start taking temps a couple times a day and watching moms actions. You can let one out to potty and she will dig a hole in the yard and have them there if you don't keep a watch. I see nothing wrong with letting mothers birth outside in their kennels/whelping boxes or barns after you have set it up. Who knows at what time she will actually decide to drop  them? You could be asleep, at the store, at work, picking up your kids from school. You can't all claim to be there for your dogs 24/7, that is just rediculous unless your dogs are your full time job and you put your family on hold while your dog whelps.

Some people have set ups outside, some indoors, who cares as long as it's sufficient for mom and she is comfortable enough to whelp when her time is near. I feel for any animal not comfortable enough to lay down and push when it's time because she is worried about who is present. I felt the exact same way when I had visitors/family filtering in and out of my room when I was in laybor. I kicked them all out, once the contractions got too much and my patience thin. I felt like a freak show with people asking me questions and taking pictures, while I felt utterly helpless and in pain.

All of my dogs who whelped when I was a kid, did it outside on their own except 1, in a box in the garage. She wanted to be inside and was comfortable with us around her in whelp and her newborns. Usually we woke up to feed and got a morning surprise of puppies. I think the best you can do is offer a bitch a nice place to whelp wherever she lives, inside or out. No need to bring a dog that lives in a kennel inside, making her feel uprooted just so you can watch. If your too lazy to check temps and keep an eye, take a flashlight outside a few times durring the night to look, I don't know what to say? Instead you bring the dog where you are comfortable and expect us to pretend your doing HER a favore.

CrysBuck25

by CrysBuck25 on 14 February 2010 - 20:02

Wasn't this just the subject of a flame-fest?

The best answer would be that there are as many opinions as there are people, and you should do what feels right to you.

There are lots of reasons to have her whelp outside, particularly if she is an outside dog.  House dogs, whelp in the house, because that's where they live.  Pups born outside seem to be stronger, less health problems.  Pups born in the house also seem to do okay, but I'd imagine that if they have a weakness, it is addressed to keep the puppy alive, which may not be the best course.

Regardless...It is the breeder's choice where the bitch gives birth, because the bitch can't have her own way.  She is subject to human desire and limitations, and human convenience.

As for eating the pups...If she has behavioral issues and would eat her offspring, then perhaps spaying might be better than breeding...Would you want to pass that on?

With regard to being willing to lose the bitch...If you don't keep an eye on things, and she dies, then you didn't do your job.

That's my take...I'm not a breeder, but I would think that the whole reason for breeding dogs, above all, is to improve the breed, and by saving pups that would otherwise die, the breed's well-being is sacrificed.

Crys


by Gustav on 14 February 2010 - 20:02

I don't understand this post...the OP has already stated what they think is where and what conditions the litter should come forth from. Some will agree and some will not. There is no right or wrong only your opinion. Many Americans prefer to have litters indoors. Many Europeans have their litters outdoors. Many American buy their dogs from breeders in Europe. So what's the point??!! If you think indoors is better, than whelp your litters indoors and buy your pups from people who do the same so as not to be hypocrite. If you don't have preference on indoors or outdoors then that's okay too and buy your pups wherever. To eah his own!!

4pack

by 4pack on 14 February 2010 - 20:02

Gustav, you have a great point. Never when buying a pup have I asked where it was born inside or out. Not a factor in who to buy from for me. I'm looking at parents, lines and the breeders integrity. Someone who whelps inside doesn't get more "points" in my book.

CrysBuck25

by CrysBuck25 on 14 February 2010 - 20:02

Makes sense, Gustav.

And there's no point for this thread to descend to the depths that the last one on this subject did...

Do it your own way.

Crys

BlackthornGSD

by BlackthornGSD on 14 February 2010 - 20:02

This argument is no different than women who choose home birth as opposed to going to a hospital.

Really now, this is just wrong. For one thing, a human woman is unlikely to be alone and is going to have the support of family, midiwives, etc, and is going to able to call for help if a difficulty arises. In fact, the woman that chooses to birth at home is much more similar to the case of a dog birthing in the home. The equivalency I'd have to draw for you is a woman choosing to walk out into the woods by herself to have a baby--how often is that a choice any sane human's gonna make?

My puppies are born in the house. One reason is that I have a lot of time and money and emotion invested in these pups, and if I can save one pup from a death due to my absence, then it's worth it to me monetarily and emotionally. Some puppies may still die--but if all it takes is a few rubs to get a baby breathing after a difficult breach birth, then that that is worth it.

As far as not knowing when the pups will be born... if you're paying attention, you will have a good idea. The mom changes behaviorally and physiologically--this can be observed. In my opinion, being a good breeder means looking out for the welfare--mental and physical--of your moms and your pups.

Dogs are not horses--they are not prey animals who have their babies secretly to ensure their survival. Most bitches--if they trust you--want you there and seem genuinely relieved by the calm presence of trusted humans.

On top of that, I firmly believe that puppies benefit from frequent contact with humans, benefit from the noises of a household, benefit from being snuggled and handled with love.

Can puppies be born in a dog house and survive? Sure. Do I think that's the hallmark of a GOOD breeder? No way.

Christine Kemper
Blackthornkennel.com












 


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