color genetics

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by outridinsolo on 25 November 2009 - 20:11

Does anyone know of a good coat color genetics website for GSD's?
Or would any of you experienced breeders be willing to comment on the probablity of coat patterns from the mating of a dark sable to a black?
Info:
Male/ dark sable (no sabling on legs or feet tho) is out of a black and red male and a dark sable female. Mostly black and red/or tan on the top and mostly dark sable on the bottom.
Female/black is out of two sables with the only non-sable dog being black, 4 generations back, Cora c Gries.
Obviously the combination will produce mostly sables I would think. Is there a possibility of blacks, black/tans, or bi.?
The breeding is not for color, but for temperament and drive. Just curious on anyones input. Thanks.

by cage on 25 November 2009 - 22:11

Depends on what genes his sire has - he can have either 1.both genes for black and tan or 2. one gene for black and tan and one for solid black color.In the first case puppies will be sables and black and tans,in the second case there will be sables and solid black puppies.

by eichenluft on 25 November 2009 - 22:11

My guess is the male is a sable with black/tan recessive - no sabling or markings on lower legs and feet = no black or bicolor recessive. So he's either sable/sable (not possible with a black/red parent) or sable with black/red recessive - this is the only possibility IMO. So he doesn't carry black, he carries black/red. Female if she is black has only one possibility of color gene - black. So no puppies will be black. Puppies will be sable with black recessive (making them darker sable/more black coverage than the sire) and black/red with black recessive (making them darker "blanket back" with more black coverage than the grandsire). All puppies will carry black recessive, but no puppies will be black from this pairing.

molly

by Onyxgirl on 25 November 2009 - 22:11

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html

by darylehret on 25 November 2009 - 23:11

"no sabling or markings on lower legs and feet = no black or bicolor recessive"

I don't know how many times I have to tell you before you'll listen, but that statement IS NOT TRUE! The reason you're the only "expert" that says it's true, is because you just basically made it up. The dog depicted below has the black recessive gene, and clearly does not have markings on his lower legs and feet.

by eichenluft on 25 November 2009 - 23:11

I can clearly see black toe marks and "tarheels" on this dog, Daryl. That = black or bi recessive. His black markings also extend down the front legs. Next?

molly

by darylehret on 26 November 2009 - 00:11

Fair enough, those markings are about his toenails though, and intermingled with lighter hairs, and the tarheels are no darker than his upper forearms, though the angle makes them appear darker. My whole point of the matter, is that the gene locus that controls the expression of black, black & tan, and sable (the Agouti locus), is not even relevant to the locus that controls the expression for armbars, toepenciling and tarheels. Those phenotypes should NEVER be an indication of having a black recessive, because not every dog who has them will have a black recessive gene.

by m_zaki40 on 26 November 2009 - 01:11

http://hauspharao.com/breeding/colorgenetics.html

by vonissk on 26 November 2009 - 01:11

Daryl I absolutely agree with you. I have a dark sable boy who has tarheels and black pencil markings on his toes and he DOES NOT carry the black recessive. Breed him to any color bitch you want and he is only going to throw sables.

by darylehret on 26 November 2009 - 03:11

And the reverse is true as well. Take a dog without those markings, and it just may have the black recessive after all. I clearly failed to illustrate that point with my dog, but if I use the example of Tyson von der Schiffslache maybe there'd be less argument. Tyson has an outstanding son that I admire, Hoky Va Pe, a solid black.

Tyson, at a stack

And a younger, but clearer view of the fronts of his legs and tops of his toes

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