Showline at BSP - Page 1

Has anybody seen Vegas du Haut Mansard performing in working trials? What is your impression? What was his scores? Which areas do you think BSZS showline dogs (particularly the ones who are VA rated) are lacking to compete at BSP and win?

Multiple possibilities could be at play.  A lack of sufficient drive, power, and intensity in the dogs could certainly play a factor.  Or, with some dogs, it could be a lack of proper training.  Sometimes the problem is at the human end of the leash!

I have heard it said in the US (warning:  generalization!) that when preparing for a trial workingline handlers train for points and showline handlers train to pass.  Clearly, not everyone fits this mold, but I don't suppose it would be much different on the other side of the pond. 

It's a real shame to see a showline with hardness and courage that never rises to its full potential because the handler has a "points don't matter" mentality. 

It's also a loss to the breed when a well-constructed powerful workingline dog never gets the V-kkl1 rating it derserves because its handler can't be bothered with that "beauty contest stuff". 

One dog that I can think of that excels in both arenas is Javir vom Talka Marda.  V rated and showed a progeny group at the BSZS, and kicks butt at the BSP. 

Off the top of my head I can't recall any showline dog that has done "podium" performance at the BSP, not recently anyway.

I can't comment on Vegas at all. 

This is why they don't compete at the BSP, this is the winner of the WDA Seiger, very hard to watch IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCZ6bydWEzo


Denise

Temperament, nerves, heart,,,,,,,,,,anything else you want to hear?  The emphasis that is placed on "movement" has actually taken away from the dog's ability to even run.  Sure, rear drive and front reach look great while gaiting, but running???  It's almost comical and pathetic to watch.  I'm not even referring to the "breakdown" on the long bite, or in the case of the video, the breakdown on "both" bites, but the shear lack of top flight speed while attempting to run.  Hurts my eyes to even watch.  It is funny though, especially when the gallery is cheering an applauding what is obviously inferior performance.  Just shows you how much people really DON'T know. 

To see a good looking dog like this,perform so badly and look so weak and heartless all the good looks and the beautifull gate go out the window.

All humans in the making of this dog should be kicked in the butt.Have a nice one.

Typically the showline dogs only compete 1 time to get their required titles, after that the trials are over.  Most of the show line dogs, if you were to see their scorebooks, you will see barely pass.  Most showline dogs are just quickly shoved through quick training to just pass.  None of it sticks and afterwards, you say fuss and the dog leaves you.

Showline people like the showing, working line people like the trialing.  There have been some decent showline dogs that can work - the NASS Sieger Bazi Urbecke from 2006 (?) He was several time SchH3 with V scores and FH and I beleive FH2.  His breeder is has working line dogs also, and he trains his dogs himself. This is a rarity.  But even he did not qualify this dog for the BSP.  The only other dog in recent memory that could work and actually was in the WUSV but placed very low was Triumph's Gucci. 

Showline people raise their pups differently and if the correct drives for work would be there, they miss developing them.  The other problem is that many of the showline dogs have the workability bred out of them.  There still are a few showline dogs that can work, but it is tremendously hard to find a pup.

I guess what I am trying to convey, is that just because a dog has a SchH title, it does not mean it can really do SchH - on any dog, when buying or breeding to, you have to not look just at the overall titles, but you need to look at the scorebooks, see how many times the dogs have been titled, the scores, the bite rating, and what judge gave the titles (many didfferent or just one a the local club).  You also have to see if the titles were at clubs, LGA's, BSP, or WUSV.  Typically a dog that is V's in points at a club trial, you can automatically take 10 points off should that same dog have not gone to a national.  Just like here, people tend to be a little more lenient at a club trial than at a national. 

Also, just because a dog can bite at a Show test, does not mean he can do bitework in a trial.  The pressure on the dog is entirely different. 

Showlines have and do compete at the BLH, BSP, FCI and WUSV
and other performance events. Here are a few quick ones. I kept it
"showlines" and not working / showline crosses.
There are several others.

Bax vom Hildegardesweg 2009 BSP
Hero vom Spitalfeld 2005 BSP

Laius vom Moorbeck 2002&2003 WUSV

Hope this helps
Brian DeBow

 Bax came in 83rd place. Hero came in 71st place. Laius came in 107th 2003, 72nd in 2002 and 50th in 2001.

Laius vom Moorbeck has excellent breeding for work also Q litter Arminus and of course Uran and Palme, this was like the male I had that I was a working dog in showline coat,  the other two have the same lines of my female that could work that is showline- she is now 10 yrs. old.  The lines in them that could work are Amigo Belgier, Mark v. Haus Beck - also my male was by Eros Luisinstrasse - hard to find these lines in any close generations anymore.

Ivan Balabanov had a nice showline male he trialed the last few years - never made the podium, but was nice and could work.

But here we are talking 6 dogs in 5-7 years out of how many bred ? 

This is a good topic. Some valuable opinions from obviously knowledgable persons. I have 2 showline littermates (1 males-1 female) 10 months old with a 4-4 on Amigo Belgier. I hope like hell that they can work respectably when it comes time for them to hit the field in earnest.