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by WhatIf on 23 November 2009 - 14:11
Which of the two (bszs or wusv) hold more prestige? And which one is an indication of the real working dog?
by SchHBabe on 23 November 2009 - 15:11
"Prestige" is completely a relative term. The BSZS is for show dogs, and to the fans of the show-line GSD there can be not greater "prestige" than placing well there.
The people who value the working characteristics of the breed, the BSZS is hardly more than a "beauty contest" populated by cookie-cutter black & red fluffy dogs. The BSP could be arguably the more "prestigous" event for the working dog enthusiast, as the quality of dogs in the WUSV can vary greatly simply because any country can potentially field a team, regardless of the strength of their dogs or the strength of the SchH program in general in their country. "Outer Mongolia" could slap together a team of 2 dogs and make it to the Worlds to compete. Is it really prestigous to be the best of the worst? Just a made-up example, but I hope you get my point.
If you want to calibrate yourself to what a powerful, hard working dog looks like, you may want to watch a few videos of Max v Tiekerhook. Not that he is "the best" or the "be all end all" but it's easy to find video of that dog and his progeny.
http://www.tiekerhook.com/index.php/videos.html
The people who value the working characteristics of the breed, the BSZS is hardly more than a "beauty contest" populated by cookie-cutter black & red fluffy dogs. The BSP could be arguably the more "prestigous" event for the working dog enthusiast, as the quality of dogs in the WUSV can vary greatly simply because any country can potentially field a team, regardless of the strength of their dogs or the strength of the SchH program in general in their country. "Outer Mongolia" could slap together a team of 2 dogs and make it to the Worlds to compete. Is it really prestigous to be the best of the worst? Just a made-up example, but I hope you get my point.
If you want to calibrate yourself to what a powerful, hard working dog looks like, you may want to watch a few videos of Max v Tiekerhook. Not that he is "the best" or the "be all end all" but it's easy to find video of that dog and his progeny.
http://www.tiekerhook.com/index.php/videos.html
by Liesjers on 23 November 2009 - 15:11
Did you mean BSP and WUSV? If not, then WUSV obviously is more of an indication of the real working dog.
by SitasMom on 23 November 2009 - 15:11
And about Universal Sieger program - could it be the best of both worlds?
Universal Sieger: This as an annual competition to find the dog that has the best structure (beauty) and the best working (SchH) combined characteristics. The dog must compete in a National level Conformation (beauty) show and a National level Schutzhund competition all on the same weekend. The dog that is the best in the combined event is the Universal Sieger. The 2nd place dog is the Vice-Universal Sieger.
Universal Sieger: This as an annual competition to find the dog that has the best structure (beauty) and the best working (SchH) combined characteristics. The dog must compete in a National level Conformation (beauty) show and a National level Schutzhund competition all on the same weekend. The dog that is the best in the combined event is the Universal Sieger. The 2nd place dog is the Vice-Universal Sieger.
by Phil Behun on 23 November 2009 - 18:11
Universal Sieger encompasses more than one weekend.
by Kim Gash on 23 November 2009 - 20:11
Just a little clarification - Regarding GSD competitions -
BSZS (SV-Bundessiegerzuchtschau) is the SV Show dog national championship - all show classes. I am not sure of the country requirements.
BSP (SV-Bundessiegerprüfung) the SV schutzhund national championship. These entries are limited to the dog being trained and living in Germany and handled by a person in Germany residence.
So there is no comparison of the two in so far as working - BSZS is a conformation show, BSP is a trial.
WUSV (Weltunion der Schäferhundvereine) is the World Union of German Shepherd Clubs Schutzhund Competiion ((WUSV-Weltmeisterschaft). That would be the most prestigous to win. for a working dog.
There is no WUSV for conformation - the BSZS is the most pretigious for conformation.
The SV Universal Sieger in Germany is chosen by a weighted average of the placings the dog receives by particpating in the BSP and the BSZ. That's why you only see working line dogs as the Universal Sieger. It has been a very long time since a showline dog placed at both competitions.
In 2006 at WDA we structured the Universal Sieger Program like the SV's. I beleive it just recently got changed to what you are citing now. Its a nice idea, but doubt if many true working dogs will participate. Having a trial and a show on the same weekend does not make much sense unless you hardly have any entries. It will be interesting to see how it pans out. Even when you prepare a working dog for a show or Koerung, you train differently and you usually add some weight to them for show and koerung. You also must prepare them for the short abbreivated bite work for the show.
USA's Universal Sieger is similar to the SV with some indiginous things added.
BSZS (SV-Bundessiegerzuchtschau) is the SV Show dog national championship - all show classes. I am not sure of the country requirements.
BSP (SV-Bundessiegerprüfung) the SV schutzhund national championship. These entries are limited to the dog being trained and living in Germany and handled by a person in Germany residence.
So there is no comparison of the two in so far as working - BSZS is a conformation show, BSP is a trial.
WUSV (Weltunion der Schäferhundvereine) is the World Union of German Shepherd Clubs Schutzhund Competiion ((WUSV-Weltmeisterschaft). That would be the most prestigous to win. for a working dog.
There is no WUSV for conformation - the BSZS is the most pretigious for conformation.
The SV Universal Sieger in Germany is chosen by a weighted average of the placings the dog receives by particpating in the BSP and the BSZ. That's why you only see working line dogs as the Universal Sieger. It has been a very long time since a showline dog placed at both competitions.
In 2006 at WDA we structured the Universal Sieger Program like the SV's. I beleive it just recently got changed to what you are citing now. Its a nice idea, but doubt if many true working dogs will participate. Having a trial and a show on the same weekend does not make much sense unless you hardly have any entries. It will be interesting to see how it pans out. Even when you prepare a working dog for a show or Koerung, you train differently and you usually add some weight to them for show and koerung. You also must prepare them for the short abbreivated bite work for the show.
USA's Universal Sieger is similar to the SV with some indiginous things added.
by SitasMom on 23 November 2009 - 22:11
Phil - just cut and pasted - you know me......
Kim - good to know how it works....
Kim - good to know how it works....
by WhatIf on 24 November 2009 - 14:11
Where can I find a list of the SV Universal Sieger and USA Universal Sieger?
Pedigreedatabase doesn't seem of have these lists and I can't find them online through search engines.
Pedigreedatabase doesn't seem of have these lists and I can't find them online through search engines.
by Kim Gash on 24 November 2009 - 16:11
You can go to the SV website for thiers - call the USA office to see if they have a list.
Also on the USA website go to the info tab, go down to the bottom and search for universal sieger - items come up. Some years they do not have any.
Here is the SV for 2009 http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/fileadmin/pdf/veranstaltungen/bsp_2009/listen/uni.pdf
The past ones are in the archives at :
http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/index.php?id=226
scroll down to the bottom and you will see 2003 -2008
Also the BSP is where the Universal Sieger is awarded because it is AFTER the BSZ.
Also on the USA website go to the info tab, go down to the bottom and search for universal sieger - items come up. Some years they do not have any.
Here is the SV for 2009 http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/fileadmin/pdf/veranstaltungen/bsp_2009/listen/uni.pdf
The past ones are in the archives at :
http://www.schaeferhunde.de/site/index.php?id=226
scroll down to the bottom and you will see 2003 -2008
Also the BSP is where the Universal Sieger is awarded because it is AFTER the BSZ.
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