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by Kim Gash on 15 November 2009 - 15:11
See post on the German Shepherd Forum part of the Message Board.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/19863.html
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/19863.html
by hodie on 15 November 2009 - 17:11
I would agree with Kim that the "devil is in the details". In actuality, in this situation, it is EXACTLY that the conformation judges and breeders (many of whom are the same in all organizations) make the standard, whichever one it is, fit what they are breeding and hence, fit what they are judging. I have shown my German dogs in AKC. I have also talked to the judges, and each time they told me they were breeders and each time, although we placed well, it was clear that the judges were judging conformation based on the subtle and not so subtle differences to which the typical AKC bred dog in America has evolved. It is no different really than the situation in Germany where the breeders, and hence judges, started to breed and judge to their subtle differences years ago, splitting the breed into show vs working lines (speaking strictly in conformation issues) and many of these differences also compromise the working ability of the dog. Nor is it different than any other breed in which humans have had a hand selectively breeding, both here and around the world. So, my point is that we who so dislike the way AKC dogs are judged could and probably should have been more involved all along in trying to steer the course.
One issue that becomes very difficult in addition to conformational issues, is the definition of working ability and temperament. I am not one to make broad and sweeping generalizations about this. There are dogs in each line of conformation, including dogs coming from the best strictly working lines who do not have the right abilities for working, for police work, for Schutzhund, ring sport or whatever. Those who are extremists on the one hand will suggest that if a dog cannot do some "work", defined as they define it, the dog is no good at all. I believe this too is faulty reasoning. Just like with human beings, there are all kinds of genetic gifts and all kinds of personalities. So it is true in the animal kingdom. And also, it has been my experience that often a dog who someone thinks can do nothing, can, indeed, when put in the right hands, do quite a lot.
I believe it critical to maintain the breed as a working breed. But I also believe that to ignore conformational issues is a huge mistake. We can think of many changes we can and have made in GSDs, that have not been particularly beneficial for the breed in a variety of ways. Breeding specifically for really large dogs, for example, or for extreme angulation of the hindquarters, would be an example. But, if reading the posts here on this forum in the past are any indication, most people cannot properly discuss conformation because they do not understand the terms. Just read one of the "Critique my dog" posts and you see how little people really understand. It would be better if most people simply said, "I like your dog", but even better that the original poster wanting such information would learn to critique his/her own dog properly. If we cannot agree on specific terms, then it is hopeless that we can ever agree on what is and is not meeting the standard. The same could be said for temperament and working ability.
One issue that becomes very difficult in addition to conformational issues, is the definition of working ability and temperament. I am not one to make broad and sweeping generalizations about this. There are dogs in each line of conformation, including dogs coming from the best strictly working lines who do not have the right abilities for working, for police work, for Schutzhund, ring sport or whatever. Those who are extremists on the one hand will suggest that if a dog cannot do some "work", defined as they define it, the dog is no good at all. I believe this too is faulty reasoning. Just like with human beings, there are all kinds of genetic gifts and all kinds of personalities. So it is true in the animal kingdom. And also, it has been my experience that often a dog who someone thinks can do nothing, can, indeed, when put in the right hands, do quite a lot.
I believe it critical to maintain the breed as a working breed. But I also believe that to ignore conformational issues is a huge mistake. We can think of many changes we can and have made in GSDs, that have not been particularly beneficial for the breed in a variety of ways. Breeding specifically for really large dogs, for example, or for extreme angulation of the hindquarters, would be an example. But, if reading the posts here on this forum in the past are any indication, most people cannot properly discuss conformation because they do not understand the terms. Just read one of the "Critique my dog" posts and you see how little people really understand. It would be better if most people simply said, "I like your dog", but even better that the original poster wanting such information would learn to critique his/her own dog properly. If we cannot agree on specific terms, then it is hopeless that we can ever agree on what is and is not meeting the standard. The same could be said for temperament and working ability.
by hodie on 15 November 2009 - 17:11
Continued:
So again, the "devil is in the details". No one organization in this country is the steward for the GSD breed as exists, for example, with Borzois. It is harmful to the breed as a whole that the interested parties cannot develop a common language, common interpretation and understanding and then progress down a path together that preserves the breed. Given however, the incredible numbers of people who breed for all the wrong reasons and know so little about the breed and what makes it unique, regardless of what breed is involved, it is doubtful that even if the various interested organizations could step up and work together so that real progress opn a consensus could ever be made.
As for the average Joe and Josephine citizen, they don't care to learn anything about breed standards and purchase accordingly. Most just want a "rug that licks". And there are plenty of other breeds that would be a better fit for such people if someone would insist they educate themselves about what kind of dog to bring into their home.
So again, the "devil is in the details". No one organization in this country is the steward for the GSD breed as exists, for example, with Borzois. It is harmful to the breed as a whole that the interested parties cannot develop a common language, common interpretation and understanding and then progress down a path together that preserves the breed. Given however, the incredible numbers of people who breed for all the wrong reasons and know so little about the breed and what makes it unique, regardless of what breed is involved, it is doubtful that even if the various interested organizations could step up and work together so that real progress opn a consensus could ever be made.
As for the average Joe and Josephine citizen, they don't care to learn anything about breed standards and purchase accordingly. Most just want a "rug that licks". And there are plenty of other breeds that would be a better fit for such people if someone would insist they educate themselves about what kind of dog to bring into their home.
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