REAL BITE OUT? - Page 1

Police dog:
DOG OUTS ON EQUIPMENT BUT HAS A PROBLEM OUT IN REAL BITE. LOOKING FOR INPUT. Looking for different training  ideas.
Prager

i would love to meet the person who trains with you and takes "real" bites with a dog that does not out.  ouch!

i have never done any type of this training so im afraid i dont have much to add.  the only thing i can think of would be to train the dog to auto out when the bad guy hits the ground?

john

No, I know how to train that.  I am just looking for different  ideas. Often Police dogs out fine on equipment  all day long. But in the real life bite the adrenalin kicks in, the  eyes turn green and then there is a problem. I have found out that  dogs  who are "game" who got before hard time from bad guys by getting kicked , hit and so on  tend to get big adrenalin rush and have hard time out.
I know "Out" is an obedience and we are trying to simulate the stress during training to get the adrenalin up and do it on hidden sleeve and so on. I am just looking for ideas. I have done dogs for 42 years, but am not above to learn more.
 Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Hans,
I have some experience with that situation.  My dog for example is very clean outing with equipment, however a real bite is a very different situation.  Once a patrol dog has it's first "real bite" it quite often changes the mindset of the dog.  The first bite is often not the best "real" bite and the dog gets better with experience.  Obviously, the first time a dog bites someone for real it does not taste, feel or smell the equipment, this is a new experience.  Instead the dog "tastes" the person, feels and smells the fear and andrenaline in the person and handler.  It escalates the drive and the aggression.  When a dog gets more experienced and has more "real" bites each one is usually harder and more intense.  Dogs that have encountered bad guys and gotten real bites and sensed the fear, and adrenaline often track suspects better. 

Once a dog has had several street bites and has been in some violent confrontations it is likely to not out as easily.  This is not unusual.  Many dogs need to be "lifted off" suspects on the street.  One thing I would recommend would be to make the training as realistic as possible by using hidden sleeeves, suits and muzzle work.  The training needs to be very physically intense for the dog and challenging, then be ready to out the dog.  You must have a method in place to out the dog whether it's a long line with 3 rd party corrections or an e-collar.  The out must be taught correctly first and the dog must understand it.  These types of dogs can never be allowed to get dirty in training and the handler must always be ready to enforce the out. 

I can see John's idea of an auto out while the decoy is on the ground, however, I don't like the auto out for Police dogs.  I don't even like it for SchH dogs any more.  A police dog should not out until told to out, IMHO.  They are some who feel it should out when the subject's stops fighting, I don't agree with this in a real world setting.  I want my dog to "hold" the bad guy till I am ready to out him.  When I have control of the suspect or I'm in a position of advantage behind cover I may command my dog to out, not before then. 

Obviously, the not outing on a real bite is a control issue.  I would work the dog on a suit and command out when the decoy is still moving and fighting.  I want my dog to be able to out any time he is told.  I would have the decoy freeze, command "hold em"  and then the dog doesn't out, after a few seconds the decoy fights again.  The dog remains on  the bite the entire time.  So the dog has a "hold em" command to stay engaged which is clear and an out command to disengage which is clear. 

I give the suspect the following commands:  "Suspect stop fighting my dog, stand still,"  the decoy freezes, this is not an out command but a prepatory command for the out.  The dog mentally knows that another command will follow which may be out or may be "hold em."  Then when I'm ready I'll command out and I'm ready to enforce it. 

I would do a lot of muzzle work where the dog engages the decoy, and fights hard. Then you "out" the dog and command platz while the dog is in  close proximity to the decoy, i.e. laying on his chest or back, between the decoys legs.  The dog must platz and remain calm or it is strongly corrected.  You can then give the "packen" command and the dog can engage from the platzed position on top of the decoy.  This type of control will go a long way to maintaining the out on a street bite. 

The dog learns to disengage and realizes that he can reengag

My post was cut off:

The dog learns to disengage and realizes that he can reengage when given the command to "packen" and still maintains his intensity.  This gives the handler the ability to turn his dog "on and off."  Once the dog has this type of "tactical" obedience and control the dog quickly learns when it is ok to engage and when he needs to control himself.  I like the muzzle work the best for this.  There is no equipment to smell and it is safe for the decoy.  With the muzzle you can really fight the dog hard and make the training strenous and stressful for the dog.  Then with the elevated aggression you train at a higher level, safely.  The dog becomes more powerful and under more control at the same time. 

I mentioned in a different thread the apprehension my dog had last Saturday night.  I was chasing a suspect from a buy / bust operation and I cut him off with my car in a parking lot.  I had ordered the suspect to stop running and get on the ground several times and he refused.  When I stopped my car, I jumped out and took him to the ground, I looked up and my dog was jumping out of my car headed to me and the bad guy.  I ordered "platz" and the dog downed next to me with his head on the bad guys shoulder, his nose next to the bad guys left ear.  The dog just stared into the guys eyes not moving, not barking or growling.  I told the guy not to move or he'd get bit and I guess the guy didn't believe me and pulled his left arm and got tagged.  I "outed" the dog and the guy moved again and got tagged again.  Then the guy stopped moving.  Luckily, the guy stopped moving the instant he got bit and my dog held his upper arm with a very full hard grip.  Which minimized the damaged, had the guy fought or tried to pull away it would have been a very bad day for him.  I was able to move my dog back about 3 feet to facilitate handcuffing the suspect. 

My dog was kicked in the face during a confrontation back in March and he didn't want to out off of that guy.  We have worked on it since then.  The best way to simulate the stress of the fight, IMO is with the muzzle.  

Jim '

 

Thank you Jim
Hans

Excellent post Slam.  Very well articulated.  Wish there were more  LE with your mind set and understanding dogs, priorities and the reality of the dogs role in dealing with bad guys.  It is a tough world out there and it takes good balanced dogs as well as LE.  You can see the difference in a dog taking a real bite his first time,  then second time as opposed to training bites.  They know what is real, they are very intuitive in this regard.  Often the problem is on the first bite, especially if  social aggression was not incorperated in training properly.  LE has many fine dogs available to them today, unlike the days when it was donations from breeders that had crap dogs.  Lots of good info, Thanks

you guys make me sick and i want to quit dog, most of people here should they are 40 years in dog they havent learn any thing they will never learn,


out mean out

juesus christ

I agree that probably the most realistic training you are going to get with fighting is the muzzle.  I would add not to forget to occasionally include simulated cover officers and all the shouting of commands to the bad guy since those are also present on many scenes.   Train as you fight. 

I agree out means out,  on duty is on the job training.  Training is ongoing, at least it should be.
Same goes for officers.   Experience is lessons learned or it's supposed to be.  
For the sake of survival one must learn very quickly, ask any soldier from any war about those first lessons learned.
And this dog jumped out of the car ?
Was this the proper use of the K-9?
Was the suspect found guilty of a crime?
Did the suspect need medical attention?

Hans,
A dog biting a man in a suit who knows whats going on is an Apple,  A dog biting someone for real is an Orange.
It looks, smells, sounds, and feels completely different.   
Experience and proper training is what makes for a proper out, adrenaline or not.
Finally, a dog is not a robot, they have a mind and instincts regardless of training sometimes it gets personal.
Thats where the handler comes in. 

Sometimes on the job training is all there is.    Training should not be just an exercise performed, it must be lived.
I don't think you need a different technique, just a real life training field with real life players, and a Trainer who knows whats needed.

More training Hans thats your answer.