Breeders that breed with no thought - Page 1

I was searching the net for working dogs in the midwest and came across a kennel named Kaja Haus. I was amazed to see that the breeder of this kennel was a certified DVG helper and the dogs he is offering for stud for a lot of money has no title. And the dogs that he is offering for sale from his kennel seem to be bred from untitled dogs. I thought the whole purpose of our sport was to preserve the true working dog and we validate that by titling our dogs. Or is the whole purpose of our sport to just make money???

The first question i get from people that call about a litter that i have is how are they with kids? not what titles they have. "validate" for who you or the dog? or to put a big price tag on the pups that may or may not go on to "validate" the breed?

jmo

KAMGSD,

I'm not quite sure I agree with your take on Cendos' question.  Having participated in the sport arena for a small period of time, I've found that there are MANY who would love to create a name for themselves while appearing to better or validate our breed of choice.

Unfortunately, it's not really about whether or not our dogs are suitable for "pet" homes.  We raise competitors and athletes - as the well-rounded shepherd OUGHT to be.  My dog can live in my house AND be around kids, and I have no fear that he will do anything untoward to anyone - unless I ask him to.

I think the point of Cendos' question is whether or not it's acceptable to breed - just for the sake of breeding and making the money off of a dog that ought to be titled.  I can't understand the justification for asking large amounts of money (as I've researched the kennel name Cendos talks about) when a dog does not possess the necesarry titles to breed as classified by the SV - which we should all be holding our standards to - and taking into Stephanitz's wishes as the founder of the breed in Germany - from where the GSD originates.

In my opinion, if a breeder is going to advertise that a dog is WORTHY of a large sum of money, he or she ought to be able to support that dog by ensuring it has the proper titles.

But, hey, that's just MY opinion.  :)

i donot think it wise to make this sort of judgement on someone or their kennel without further investigation.  your assumption could very well be correct or you may be way off.  too many folks too quick to throw stones on this forum.
pjp

i'll assume for some people,titles may be the "be all/end all" of breeding(studs for hire/puppy sales).however i'd investigate further before i put the "piss eye" on someone's breeding/training establishment....but i think the dog for stud(on that website) is titled.even if he wasn't,he carries a very strong pedigree and i'd have no hesitation about breeding to such an animal,(assuming all medical issues were up to par)if i could see the dog work first hand and interact in social situations...i wouldn't expect anyone to "french-kiss or bear hug" such a dog,i certainly wouldn't...but the handler and a passer by should be able to interact in a normal manner without the dog going bonkers,and that would be plenty for me.titles are great....but i wouldn't select a genetically inferior dog to the one mentioned simply because of a title...when a handler/trainer goes thru the time and training to title a dog i feel it's a great accomplishment..lotta time and money invested...titles don't assure superior breeding...good pups come from superior genitics....it's not always the "PODIUM DOG"that produces good ,workable dogs...sometimes it the midpack dogs that advance the breed....good luck in your training...

Your (sport) is just that, a sport.
Maintaining or even improving the breed will not happen because of your sport.
It will only happen when dedicated people take great care and much time studying and selecting breed stock and breed for a specific purpose not for money.
Tests are important, but so is study, and observation over time.   Knowledge and wisdom and a keen eye.
There is so much more to a German Shepherd than obedience and biting a sleeve, it's a herding breed that no longer herds, this is the first problem. 

Besides stamina and perfect health there are instincts, temperament, and intelligence to consider.  
Max wasn't doing it for the world, he wasn't doing it for money, he was doing it for himself, he had purpose and direction.
Times sure have changed, and so has the breed.

People are going to breed for what they want, sport, show, work, and maybe a few will breed to herd.
We each have a different vision of what the breed should be.    Thats not going to change.

So..... titles mean more to some than others.

Moons.

Since we are bringing Max into the debate, his description of Horand admits that Horand had no formal training- yet Horand is acknowledged to be one of, if not the, founder of the breed, & he was not formally trained. From this I would deduce that Max himself would judge a dog on it's qualities, rather than it's titles, & breed it if he found it worthy. Yes, titling your dog is the best & preferred way to rate it's breed worthiness, but surely there are some great, untitled dogs out there. Some that should have been, but for their owners failures rather than their own, were not titled. So I would have to reserve judgment until I met the animal in question, rather than make a blanket assumption about all untitled GSDs (of which I myself own a few, I must admit, so my comments are not without prejudice!) jackie harris

BTW- Many working dogs that truly work have no 'title'....yet surely these are the type of GSD that Max was striving to acheive? "Take this trouble from me....." Schutzhund itself has become a show ring of sorts, has it not? Just a thought....jh

I think the main thing is, it takes time to truly know what you have and what you create in a particular breeding.
No one takes the time.

And taking the time means keeping back some of your pups, doing all the health testing on them, working with them, before you really know what you have produced.......maybe that's something more important to look for in a breeder. That might indicate they really do have a plan, a goal towards which they are working; rather than just churning out the flavor of the month pups for the highest bidder. JMHO. jackie harris

I have said it before and i say it again I agree titles do not make the Dog better, BUT what going and training for titles does do is to bring out the temperament of the Dog,
If you have a dog who is sitting by the fire and taken for a walk by the owner it is a contented dog no stress no pressure
BUT you put that same dog on the working field and ask it to do things which is not the norm you will put that dog under pressure and if it has any doubt or issues in its temperament it will show, I can go on But what it tells us that by living a normal stress free life Dogs will show a different side to themselves than when put under some kind of stress
I have seen it happen many many times and the said owner was shocked at the reaction of the Dog Its never done that before is said of course not it was never put under the same circumstances before
Now what is the point of all this If you have say a dog which is well bred But has never been put under any stress the same dog can have decent breed able Joints
and whist i say that only one of the above posts mentioned medical issues but not Joints no one else seems to think those important when it comes to breeding, well not the posters above do not
Now put that dog under pressure and you may see a different dog than you thought you owned Now if that Dog does have issues bought out by a different mode of working Surely you would not want to breed with such a Dog or would you
 Working in ScH or herding a Dog does bring out the true temperament of the Dog and that is very important i believe when breeding because if it passes the trait onto its progeny then you will have more and more dogs with these problems and that is not bettering the German Shepherd Breed, but making it worse
Steve