Your thoughts and foundations on protection work. - Page 1

Can you share your ideas or methods used on training a pup or young adult for real protection work or Police type training?

Some are using different dog sports as a foundation,they bite work the pups using their prey drive then cross train the pup when it hits maturity or when they feel that the dog is ready.

Some just let the pup grow and mature without any bite traing,they just train the dog when the dog is mature already.

Some say if we use the prey drive to bite work the pups,the pup will eventually be locked in prey as it grows that's why they say that some dogs are equipment oriented and will have problems on training for real protection or for Police training.

Others put the dog in their defense mode and see if the dog has what it takes to this kind of work.

I know there are different approaches on this and it varies from one dog to another but I think it would be great if we share our ideas.

Thanks.

cop says to perp:STOP,OR I'LL RELEASE THE DOG! perp says:screw you cop,i'm outta here!(now dog is pulling on lead and bearking) perp flees at top speed...zigzagging thru cars and houses,cop deployes k9....dog in persuit mode(prey?)..k9 corners perp behind garbage dumpster...goes into retension mode(bark/hold?)...perp then attacks k9... (to hopefully get away before cop arrives) k9 engages to perps' arm with full pressure grip(fight/defense?),cop arrives on scene...orders perp" STOP FIGHTING THE DOG....STAND STILL,and orders k9"OUT"(OBEDIENCE?) cop cuffs perp(k9 orderded PLATZ) and k9 escort perp to patrol car.....PREY,DEFENSE,FIGHT,OBEDIENCE.....where have i seen that before...my point.....not every schutzhund dog can make k9,not every k9 could do schutzhund,but for puppies....fun,fun,fun(chase,capture,retain),then when the maturity level sets in..meter in common sense levels of defense,dog engages...increase the fight....go back into prey to relieve stress..then take your dog off the field with a win and challenge from your helper.....not much difference in the training.

focus and obedience of the foundation for all work.

vom ost see:

when you say go back in to prey to relieve stress,does it mean you give the sleeve to the dog and let him run away with it?

does this method takes away the civil aggression in dogs which is needed on real protection work or police training?

my puppy just turned 3 months. my trainer has been doing rag work, working on his prey drive and working on getting a full bite. im doing the sit, laydown and heirr commands at home. my obedience training should start next week.  i am amazed how fast my pup is picking this stuff up.

Rin Tin Tin,
As VOS mentioned and I do agree, prey is a good place to start with a young puppy.  I don't like to add too much defense in with a puppy.  I look at it like a small child play fighting.  A  4 or 5 year old child is incapable of handling too much pressure just like a puppy.  I would do some things differently with a puppy in the future.  I raised my current police K9 from a 7week old pup.  I would spend a lot of time on leg and body bites.  Dogs that learn the foundation of bite work with a sleeve will usually revert to the arm when biting.  A police K9 should be willing to bite any target provided, some will pass a leg to get to an arm.  We teach our dogs to target high on the back  when sending them after someone who is running, this is safer for the dog, handler and bad guy.

I would work slipping the equipment and rewarding the dog in the beginning.  Then it has to switch to the man, the equipment is no longer the reward.  A decoy running away from a dog with a short chase on lead is just as rewarding as a sleeve carry.  The dog needs to learn to focus on the man and not the equipment.  Ideally, a PP or police K9 will spit the sleeve out to reengage the decoy (bad guy). 

Sitasmom, perhaps you didn't understand the nature of this thread.  Focus and obedience are not the foundation for this type of work.  If you begin to put formal obedience on a puppy, the bite work work may suffer, IMO.  Imprinting is great, using a toy, food or a clicker or combination is great for puppies.  But, these types of dogs require little obedience at this young age and it can be counter productive.  We actually don't want focused heeling with Police K9's, we want the dog watching the environment around the handler; not the handler.   SchH obedience and Police K9 obedience are a little different.  My dog will do a beautiful focused "fuss" even under gun fire, but It's not what I want.  So he has 3 commands  1) Heel, walk next to me in heel position usually off lead. 2) easy, walk and don't pull on your leash.  3) "fuss"  when I want focused high energy, correct, enthusiastic heeling. Usually for demos, training and future competitions.   Most handlers don't have my version of "fuss"

Police K9's need to work independently of the handler.  I've seen handlers with so much obedience and control over their new dogs that the dog won't leave their side.  These dogs can be reluctant to go off on their own to search a dark building.  This usually shows up in training and needs to be corrected. 

One thing I would definitely do with a young pup is agility and expose the dog to all kinds of environments.  I would put the puppy on all kinds of floors and surfaces.  I would start having the pup do little obstacles and expose him to all kinds of situations, obviously carefully and controlled.  For a police K9 you can start tracking and air scenting for the dog.  Lots of things you can do to positively imprint these things for the pup.

FWIW,

Jim

 wow, slamdunc. Very informative post. 

Yup, I love Jim's posts.

What age /and or stage (probably different with every dog) approximately do you start working defense in?  obedience in?

Jim-

Very nice little bit about difference between performance (sport) and service dogs.

Also good reminder to consider developmental issues and level of training. I see too many people who demand focus and obedience in a puppy over encouraging the natural drives and desire to please in play. If you have a young dog that is allowed to do what it loves and loves to do it with you, everything else is going to be academic.   

If people are already preparing their toddlers for Harvard or Yale even before kindergarten then they will demand much the same from their dogs - and ruin both for the sake of their own ego.