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by Prager on 24 September 2009 - 20:09
Probably everybody have seen this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM&feature=player_embedded#t=33
Do you know why the dog is acting like a retard? In England, in they infinite PC wisdom, they are sending police dogs on criminals with MUZZLE ON. It is supposedly inhumane to send the dog on a bad guy to get him bit, in England that is. This dog, you can kind of see it in some shots, has a muzzle on. So the dog is not as dumb as it seems . The PC law makers are though.
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM&feature=player_embedded#t=33
Do you know why the dog is acting like a retard? In England, in they infinite PC wisdom, they are sending police dogs on criminals with MUZZLE ON. It is supposedly inhumane to send the dog on a bad guy to get him bit, in England that is. This dog, you can kind of see it in some shots, has a muzzle on. So the dog is not as dumb as it seems . The PC law makers are though.
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Slamdunc on 24 September 2009 - 22:09
Hi Hans,
I can't see a muzzle in the video. I have also heard talk of England using muzzles on Police dogs. Obviously, there is a training issue here. Even if the dog was muzzled a good dog should engage the guy and knock him to the ground. Some dogs won't engage a person with out equipment, these dogs should never be police dogs. As you know, some dogs aren't cut out for police work, and training is not always perfect.
We don't even train the "hold and bark" anymore for our police K9's. We train a "find and bite." If I send my dog it is with a "packen" command. If I am tracking someone I don't want bit I keep my dog on lead.
Jim
I can't see a muzzle in the video. I have also heard talk of England using muzzles on Police dogs. Obviously, there is a training issue here. Even if the dog was muzzled a good dog should engage the guy and knock him to the ground. Some dogs won't engage a person with out equipment, these dogs should never be police dogs. As you know, some dogs aren't cut out for police work, and training is not always perfect.
We don't even train the "hold and bark" anymore for our police K9's. We train a "find and bite." If I send my dog it is with a "packen" command. If I am tracking someone I don't want bit I keep my dog on lead.
Jim
by sueincc on 24 September 2009 - 22:09
A fellow member of working dog forum, who is a LEO in the UK, apparently knows this particular dog/handler team and reports it was a green dog training issue, which has been resolved and in fact this dog and his handler have since gone on to make a number of successful apprehensions.
by Red Sable on 24 September 2009 - 22:09
Jim, why not teach the hold and bark? Isn't that more humane, also safer, incase your dog engages the wrong person while on the hunt?
What if it is just a petty theft? In this day and age, maybe more people will resort to stealing. Just curious as to why the change?
What if it is just a petty theft? In this day and age, maybe more people will resort to stealing. Just curious as to why the change?
by Prager on 24 September 2009 - 23:09
Yes Jim, I know and I agree with you.
But listen to this. I know someone who is selling large number of dogs to G.B. P.D. They have put several of his best dogs down because they were "too aggressive" for police work. What these dogs were doing was they were barking on strangers in front of the kennels. That was the sole reason for the euthanasia. When asked why they did not send the dogs back; they said that by the law they had to be etherized on the spot. These were excellent dogs which any PD in USA would be glad to have. But different country , different standards. Grind , grind, my teeth.
Prager (Hans)
But listen to this. I know someone who is selling large number of dogs to G.B. P.D. They have put several of his best dogs down because they were "too aggressive" for police work. What these dogs were doing was they were barking on strangers in front of the kennels. That was the sole reason for the euthanasia. When asked why they did not send the dogs back; they said that by the law they had to be etherized on the spot. These were excellent dogs which any PD in USA would be glad to have. But different country , different standards. Grind , grind, my teeth.
Prager (Hans)
by Prager on 24 September 2009 - 23:09
The hold and bark is a dangerous situation for the dog and handler. Dog may be shot or stabbed, barking alerts other perpetrators, and if the dog is killed that endangeres the officer. Tracking is usually done on long line to protect the Innocent. Also the dog is tracking specific track / person and will not engage other people. Dog like that can track through crowd of people. Just my point of view.
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Red Sable on 24 September 2009 - 23:09
Makes sense. Thanks Hans.
by Slamdunc on 24 September 2009 - 23:09
RS,
The hold and bark is not tactically safe. It puts the dog in close proximity to a bad guy. The dog could easily be hit, stabbed or shot barking in front of a bad guy. When you say "humane" are you referring to a wanted felon? A Police K9 is not lethal force and if it comes down to me or my dog getting hurt or the bad guy getting bit, it's an easy choice.
Even doing a hold and bark the wrong person can get bit if they move. A dog trained to hold and bark, barks until the suspect moves then bites. So this is really not safer for a citizen and doesn't necessarily prevent accidental bites.
If I respond to a residential burglar alarm with an open door, I make contact with the home owner first when possible. I ask if they have pets and if anyone should be home. I ask about teen age children, who may have been locked out and climbed through a window to get in. For residential searches and high risk searches we have "Covert clears" where I use a long line to systematically clear a house room by room. I have apprehended people this way who had misdemeanor charges, but were possibly armed. We don't deploy the dogs on misdemeanors, except in special circumstances.
Every time I respond with my dog while en route I gather as much info as I can and decide before I arrive whether or not it's a bite or no bite call.
I respond primarily to a felonies in progress; I go to armed robberies, shootings, pursuits, burglaries, fights, violent domestics etc. If I respond to a commercial burglary and I'm assured that no one should be in the building my dog goes in off lead with an apprehension command. I have control over my dog and can direct him to clear specific rooms and stop him in doorways or hallways. If he encounters someone I want him to bite and hold the suspect till it's safe for me to approach. We will often have the bad guy bring the dog to our position then we will call the dog off and handcuff the suspect. It doesn't pay to rush into a dark room in case their are multiple bad guys waiting for you.
So, not to bore you with too many details. If I send my dog off lead it's to find and bite and it's very serious. I have an excellent recall and an excellent "platz" or down command. A couple of weeks go I caught a guy burglarizing a house at night. I got him trying to come out the back door. I was able to down my dog so I could handcuff him, before other officers arrived. The guy gave up, so he didn't get bit. But he did move his leg and my dog almost got him. My dog watched him so I could watch for his buddies in case they were still in the house.
That's how we do it, other PD's may do it differently. Hope that makes sense.
Jim
The hold and bark is not tactically safe. It puts the dog in close proximity to a bad guy. The dog could easily be hit, stabbed or shot barking in front of a bad guy. When you say "humane" are you referring to a wanted felon? A Police K9 is not lethal force and if it comes down to me or my dog getting hurt or the bad guy getting bit, it's an easy choice.
Even doing a hold and bark the wrong person can get bit if they move. A dog trained to hold and bark, barks until the suspect moves then bites. So this is really not safer for a citizen and doesn't necessarily prevent accidental bites.
If I respond to a residential burglar alarm with an open door, I make contact with the home owner first when possible. I ask if they have pets and if anyone should be home. I ask about teen age children, who may have been locked out and climbed through a window to get in. For residential searches and high risk searches we have "Covert clears" where I use a long line to systematically clear a house room by room. I have apprehended people this way who had misdemeanor charges, but were possibly armed. We don't deploy the dogs on misdemeanors, except in special circumstances.
Every time I respond with my dog while en route I gather as much info as I can and decide before I arrive whether or not it's a bite or no bite call.
I respond primarily to a felonies in progress; I go to armed robberies, shootings, pursuits, burglaries, fights, violent domestics etc. If I respond to a commercial burglary and I'm assured that no one should be in the building my dog goes in off lead with an apprehension command. I have control over my dog and can direct him to clear specific rooms and stop him in doorways or hallways. If he encounters someone I want him to bite and hold the suspect till it's safe for me to approach. We will often have the bad guy bring the dog to our position then we will call the dog off and handcuff the suspect. It doesn't pay to rush into a dark room in case their are multiple bad guys waiting for you.
So, not to bore you with too many details. If I send my dog off lead it's to find and bite and it's very serious. I have an excellent recall and an excellent "platz" or down command. A couple of weeks go I caught a guy burglarizing a house at night. I got him trying to come out the back door. I was able to down my dog so I could handcuff him, before other officers arrived. The guy gave up, so he didn't get bit. But he did move his leg and my dog almost got him. My dog watched him so I could watch for his buddies in case they were still in the house.
That's how we do it, other PD's may do it differently. Hope that makes sense.
Jim
by Prager on 24 September 2009 - 23:09
Great explanation Jim!
Prager (Hans)
Prager (Hans)
by Red Sable on 24 September 2009 - 23:09
It makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain. 
When I said humane, I was thinking of some teenager making a stupid first time mistake, not a wanted creep. Sounds like you do a fantastic job.
When I said humane, I was thinking of some teenager making a stupid first time mistake, not a wanted creep. Sounds like you do a fantastic job.
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