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by DDR-DSH on 24 September 2009 - 16:09
Some of you may remember that I had a situation a year ago, where I could not get the AKC papers on a bitch I had bought about three years before.
I am happy to report that the AKC re-opened the case at my request and made the decision to give the papers to me. I really had all the evidence in my corner. A signed-off registration application should be "prima facie" evidence of ownership.
I was going to add this onto the previous thread, but it has apparently been taken down. Maybe it was too embarrassing for someone???? I'm not naming names, but if the shoe fits, wear it (as the saying goes).
The basic facts are these: I bought the bitch puppy, by mutual agreement. I paid for the puppy in full, the price which was requested. The AKC papers were signed over to me by the breeder, with no restrictions. I had these same papers, and the postmarked envelope they were sent in, in my possession. I delayed in sending in the papers for transfer, and the breeder registered her in his own name, using his AKC online account. I was advised of his intent, and wouldn't have minded (since I am really not interested in AKC papers and don't plan to go back into dog breeding), and I would have been happy to return the bitch to him (as offered, after I had one litter from her) as a courtesy (not contractual, not in writing, and not a part of the sales agreement), until he allegedly started to tell others that I had somehow misappropriated her... which was a slap in my face. If you offer to give something to someone, in your own good time, and they then allegedly accuse you of being a thief, when in fact you paid them (as agreed) for this something, that is not cool... especially if the someone they allegedly told this to was an esteemed associate with whom you hoped to transact on a professional / collegial level, and when you had introduced the two.. very embarrassing, and again, "not cool".
Instead, I sold the bitch to someone else, and notified the breeder.. who should have then sent me the papers, but refused.
Now, I don't like to pull back on an offer, or a "promise", but the promise is a good measure of the friendship. When friendships fall apart, promises are likely to be forgotten and cast away. The thing that everyone should know is that promises are not legally binding. Contracts are. So, if you want and need for something to happen, a certain way, then make a contract, and both parties sign to it. And, by the way, contracts involve equity.. something in the way of goods, money or services in exchange for something of a mutually-agreed equal value. Both parties can modify a contract, later on, by mutual agreement, if necessary. That can be added to the formal agreement, as an ammendment. Gifts are just gifts, and the offer or promise of a gift can in no ways be enforced in a court of law. Once given, a gift is yours, and cannot be recalled.
I'd just like to encourage everyone to take the time to formalize their agreements by making good contracts. Both parties should sign and each should get a copy. Any breeder who wants to hold onto papers and refuses to sign contracts which will protect your rights should be avoided. You will probably not be able to sue the breeder out of state, so get it all laid out in advance, to prevent misunderstandings and problems, later on.
I'd also like to encourage anyone with these kinds of problems to be persistent, and don't give up too easy. I was met with a brick wall, at first, but eventually took it to a higher level, where the matter was favorably resolved.
I am happy to report that the AKC re-opened the case at my request and made the decision to give the papers to me. I really had all the evidence in my corner. A signed-off registration application should be "prima facie" evidence of ownership.
I was going to add this onto the previous thread, but it has apparently been taken down. Maybe it was too embarrassing for someone???? I'm not naming names, but if the shoe fits, wear it (as the saying goes).
The basic facts are these: I bought the bitch puppy, by mutual agreement. I paid for the puppy in full, the price which was requested. The AKC papers were signed over to me by the breeder, with no restrictions. I had these same papers, and the postmarked envelope they were sent in, in my possession. I delayed in sending in the papers for transfer, and the breeder registered her in his own name, using his AKC online account. I was advised of his intent, and wouldn't have minded (since I am really not interested in AKC papers and don't plan to go back into dog breeding), and I would have been happy to return the bitch to him (as offered, after I had one litter from her) as a courtesy (not contractual, not in writing, and not a part of the sales agreement), until he allegedly started to tell others that I had somehow misappropriated her... which was a slap in my face. If you offer to give something to someone, in your own good time, and they then allegedly accuse you of being a thief, when in fact you paid them (as agreed) for this something, that is not cool... especially if the someone they allegedly told this to was an esteemed associate with whom you hoped to transact on a professional / collegial level, and when you had introduced the two.. very embarrassing, and again, "not cool".
Instead, I sold the bitch to someone else, and notified the breeder.. who should have then sent me the papers, but refused.
Now, I don't like to pull back on an offer, or a "promise", but the promise is a good measure of the friendship. When friendships fall apart, promises are likely to be forgotten and cast away. The thing that everyone should know is that promises are not legally binding. Contracts are. So, if you want and need for something to happen, a certain way, then make a contract, and both parties sign to it. And, by the way, contracts involve equity.. something in the way of goods, money or services in exchange for something of a mutually-agreed equal value. Both parties can modify a contract, later on, by mutual agreement, if necessary. That can be added to the formal agreement, as an ammendment. Gifts are just gifts, and the offer or promise of a gift can in no ways be enforced in a court of law. Once given, a gift is yours, and cannot be recalled.
I'd just like to encourage everyone to take the time to formalize their agreements by making good contracts. Both parties should sign and each should get a copy. Any breeder who wants to hold onto papers and refuses to sign contracts which will protect your rights should be avoided. You will probably not be able to sue the breeder out of state, so get it all laid out in advance, to prevent misunderstandings and problems, later on.
I'd also like to encourage anyone with these kinds of problems to be persistent, and don't give up too easy. I was met with a brick wall, at first, but eventually took it to a higher level, where the matter was favorably resolved.
by DDR-DSH on 24 September 2009 - 16:09
Oh, yes.. I did owe him a medium sized crate, about $40 at Wal-Mart. I offered previously to send him the money to buy a new crate.. didn't seem to make much sense to pay $25 to UPS to ship the old crate to him. He refused that.. wanted the old crate back, whining that it was too much trouble to go buy a new one? Not as if it is no trouble to me to shlep that dog crate to UPS to ship it, OK? I dunno.. So, yes.. I guess I still owe him a crate.
What is this thread about, then? Maybe an attempt to clarify things, and tell my side of it, in case anyone else out there was told I was a "thief".
What is this thread about, then? Maybe an attempt to clarify things, and tell my side of it, in case anyone else out there was told I was a "thief".
by steve1 on 24 September 2009 - 21:09
I know nothing about your problem but it seemed you got it fixed , One thing i do not agree with you on is,
You say a promise is not legal binding, no it is not in the sense of the law it may not be,
But for me it is binding, If i give my word then it is done even if the friendship does not last if you give your word it should be kept, for if you do not then you have no moralls at all
At least it is with me, as the old saying goes My word is my bond It does not make me any different but it matters to me
Steve
You say a promise is not legal binding, no it is not in the sense of the law it may not be,
But for me it is binding, If i give my word then it is done even if the friendship does not last if you give your word it should be kept, for if you do not then you have no moralls at all
At least it is with me, as the old saying goes My word is my bond It does not make me any different but it matters to me
Steve
by DDR-DSH on 25 September 2009 - 01:09
I understand, Steve.. That's the "old fashioned" way. When pretty much everyone acted honorably and "feared God", and when people lived most of their lives in small communities, that worked. It doesn't work in today's world. If you conduct yourself like that, today, the odds are you are going to really get a good screwing in life. Naive people are the righteous prey of the deceivers and users, and the waters are full of them.
The character of Shylock insisted on his "pound of flesh", based on a promise, even though it was malicious to collect, and worthless to him. He required the full satisfaction of the promise made him. My husband and his brother got royally screwed in an inheritance, relative to their sister.. all based on an old promise / agreement that their parents had made, under assumptions of fact which were no longer true. Not only was this egregious, but the sister then tried to further enrich herself by attempting to take a $60,000 CD which was specifically to be left to the boys.
It's not a fair world. You can treat your friends and family good, but they'd better be good to you, too. It's hard enough to be good to your own people, sometimes. I try to be fair to everyone, but I refuse to cater to people who are seemingly going out of their way to be obnoxious, and unkind to others. And, I don't expect the world to like or respect me, but I do require a reasonable degree of respect and support from my friends.
It goes both ways.. If it ends up being unfair to someone, I'm not going to hold anyone to a "promise". I would not expect you to perform something which really cost you in an unreasonable way, when it clearly was no longer fair to you. It was never "fair" or equitable to assume that an offered gift was already his property, further allegedly telling people that I had stolen it from him.. when, in fact, I had paid for it. In this particular situation, I never set out to buy this bitch in the first place. I pulled the breeder's fat out of the fire and stopped another guy from ripping him off.
I think that the motivation here was to keep other breeders from having "his" bloodlines. Personally, I am honored if some other breeder thinks enough of my dogs to keep the lines going, and I don't regard them as my lines, anyway. They are all our dogs. If anyone tries to hoard bloodlines, to keep them from other breeders, then that is potentially very damaging to the breed. I don't agree with it.
The character of Shylock insisted on his "pound of flesh", based on a promise, even though it was malicious to collect, and worthless to him. He required the full satisfaction of the promise made him. My husband and his brother got royally screwed in an inheritance, relative to their sister.. all based on an old promise / agreement that their parents had made, under assumptions of fact which were no longer true. Not only was this egregious, but the sister then tried to further enrich herself by attempting to take a $60,000 CD which was specifically to be left to the boys.
It's not a fair world. You can treat your friends and family good, but they'd better be good to you, too. It's hard enough to be good to your own people, sometimes. I try to be fair to everyone, but I refuse to cater to people who are seemingly going out of their way to be obnoxious, and unkind to others. And, I don't expect the world to like or respect me, but I do require a reasonable degree of respect and support from my friends.
It goes both ways.. If it ends up being unfair to someone, I'm not going to hold anyone to a "promise". I would not expect you to perform something which really cost you in an unreasonable way, when it clearly was no longer fair to you. It was never "fair" or equitable to assume that an offered gift was already his property, further allegedly telling people that I had stolen it from him.. when, in fact, I had paid for it. In this particular situation, I never set out to buy this bitch in the first place. I pulled the breeder's fat out of the fire and stopped another guy from ripping him off.
I think that the motivation here was to keep other breeders from having "his" bloodlines. Personally, I am honored if some other breeder thinks enough of my dogs to keep the lines going, and I don't regard them as my lines, anyway. They are all our dogs. If anyone tries to hoard bloodlines, to keep them from other breeders, then that is potentially very damaging to the breed. I don't agree with it.
by DDR-DSH on 25 September 2009 - 01:09
And, really, the offer was never a part of the sales agreement. It was more in the nature of a question to him, after the fact, if he would want her back, when I had had a litter from her. I never had that litter. So, in the strictest sense of the word, the conditions of the promise were never fulfilled. I never had that litter. I had hoped to, but it just didn't happen. And, I really don't like the bitch that much, to tell you the truth. Not my idea of something I want more of. I have to be picky.. I'm really too busy to breed dogs, anymore. I just had my first litter in ten years, and it was wonderful, but it took a lot of time and resources.
I don't like to dump dogs, you know? I only asked him if he wanted her back, after I had one litter from her. I was trying to think forward, since I knew I would not want to keep her forever.
Now, if you think I have "no morals at all", I got a surplus bitch from another breeder I have since come to know (who is a very sweet person), and I gave her five of the eight pups she was able to sell.. even took them to the vet for health certificates and shipped them for her.. let her keep all of the money. She was ready just to sign the bitch over to me, but I didn't think that was fair to her. It's not all about the money with me. It never was. I'm interested in the dogs.
I don't like to dump dogs, you know? I only asked him if he wanted her back, after I had one litter from her. I was trying to think forward, since I knew I would not want to keep her forever.
Now, if you think I have "no morals at all", I got a surplus bitch from another breeder I have since come to know (who is a very sweet person), and I gave her five of the eight pups she was able to sell.. even took them to the vet for health certificates and shipped them for her.. let her keep all of the money. She was ready just to sign the bitch over to me, but I didn't think that was fair to her. It's not all about the money with me. It never was. I'm interested in the dogs.
by Schaferhunden on 25 September 2009 - 01:09
Wow do you not give up? This is a forum to discuss and learn about the German Shepherd dog. Not to listen to people like you who rant and rave. I hope people will not respond to ddr posts so the forum can continue the discussion of the German Shepherd. DDR please shut up your past record tells me you are not reputable.
by DDR-DSH on 25 September 2009 - 03:09
If you don't think that paper problems are relevant to the dogs, I guess you have a lot to learn, so maybe that is why you like to read my posts. You realize your own ignorance, and that is a good start in the search for knowledge.
by steve1 on 25 September 2009 - 05:09
DDR-DSH
I do not look to God or anyone else for anything i shake hands on a deal trust my instincts and thats it and if i say i am going to do something or give somethingto someone it is done i never back out of my word, and if i get screwed as you put it, then i did deal out retribution the old fashioned way, or as i call it my way and i have never hesitated to do it for it happens in life we all get caught sometime or another
And as for being naive i think i have lived long enough and gone through enough in my life not to be naive about anything i am pretty good at seeing through a con man or woman or someone who is not honest, I have never had cause to regret anything in the way i have done dealings with anyone, and i have lived a fair time todate
But thats me i am not you, as for me there is nothing more to say on this thread you made your point thats enough
Steve
I do not look to God or anyone else for anything i shake hands on a deal trust my instincts and thats it and if i say i am going to do something or give somethingto someone it is done i never back out of my word, and if i get screwed as you put it, then i did deal out retribution the old fashioned way, or as i call it my way and i have never hesitated to do it for it happens in life we all get caught sometime or another
And as for being naive i think i have lived long enough and gone through enough in my life not to be naive about anything i am pretty good at seeing through a con man or woman or someone who is not honest, I have never had cause to regret anything in the way i have done dealings with anyone, and i have lived a fair time todate
But thats me i am not you, as for me there is nothing more to say on this thread you made your point thats enough
Steve
by mobjack on 25 September 2009 - 05:09
If i give my word then it is done even if the friendship does not last if you give your word it should be kept
I have to agree with Steve on this one. If more people did things "the old fashioned" way there would be a lot less hatred and discontent in the world.
JMHO
I have to agree with Steve on this one. If more people did things "the old fashioned" way there would be a lot less hatred and discontent in the world.
JMHO
by DDR-DSH on 27 September 2009 - 05:09
Well, I'm the kind of a person that I do something nice for someone for no reason at all, even a stranger in need, and I don't usually say anything about it, don't want a brownie button or any recognition or thanks, or anything in return. I like to treat my friends better even than that, naturally.
When someone stabs me in the back, embarrasses me to others, speaks to me rudely and calls me a thief and insults me, they need not expect anything from me but a view of my backside, disappearing in the distance. I don't play the doormat role very well. I'll be damned if I'm going to give them an $1,800 I can get for my property, when it's needed at home. I refused it once, but I didn't refuse it the second time it was offered. If my family needs the money, more, well.. What really is the right thing to do?
Maybe I just have a more proper sense of humility. I'm not too proud to eat my own words, if it seems the right thing to do.I try to use some common sense and think things through. However, I do have a sense of pride. If I offer to do something nice for someone, I don't need my ass kissed, but I sure don't need it kicked, either.
Sorry, but I don't let people own me. I don't try to control others, and I don't want them controlling me. I think that's reasonable enough. If I do something nice for someone, it's because I really want to do it, not because I am on some kind of a guilt trip, or because they (think they) have me by the short / curlies.
'Nuff said.
When someone stabs me in the back, embarrasses me to others, speaks to me rudely and calls me a thief and insults me, they need not expect anything from me but a view of my backside, disappearing in the distance. I don't play the doormat role very well. I'll be damned if I'm going to give them an $1,800 I can get for my property, when it's needed at home. I refused it once, but I didn't refuse it the second time it was offered. If my family needs the money, more, well.. What really is the right thing to do?
Maybe I just have a more proper sense of humility. I'm not too proud to eat my own words, if it seems the right thing to do.I try to use some common sense and think things through. However, I do have a sense of pride. If I offer to do something nice for someone, I don't need my ass kissed, but I sure don't need it kicked, either.
Sorry, but I don't let people own me. I don't try to control others, and I don't want them controlling me. I think that's reasonable enough. If I do something nice for someone, it's because I really want to do it, not because I am on some kind of a guilt trip, or because they (think they) have me by the short / curlies.
'Nuff said.
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