This is a placeholder text
Group text
by kitkat3478 on 11 September 2009 - 12:09
Now SchH is regarded as a sport for both dog and owner, Is it meant to be fun for the dog as well as the owner? Aside from being a sport, it is used in many instances to prove a dogs worth for breeding. To some, dogs and schutzhund is a business, to others it is a hobby and just an all around fun thing to do with your dog(s).
I have recently read some horror stories on training methods used to get that title. That's what leads me to this post. Why would anyone hoist a dog off their feet using a prong collar, or shock the crap out of them to make them do as is expected to "win?" WHERE is the fun in that for the dog? Is the dog than acting as a well trained dog, or as dog that has been terrorized to act in a specific manner.
Should your dog enjoy the sport, be it showline, or working line?
I have recently read some horror stories on training methods used to get that title. That's what leads me to this post. Why would anyone hoist a dog off their feet using a prong collar, or shock the crap out of them to make them do as is expected to "win?" WHERE is the fun in that for the dog? Is the dog than acting as a well trained dog, or as dog that has been terrorized to act in a specific manner.
Should your dog enjoy the sport, be it showline, or working line?
by beetree on 11 September 2009 - 12:09
The obvious would be yes, a sport should be enjoyed by 2 and 4 legged entries. Abusing an animal to make them perform is illegal, period. Now, what constitutes abuse in this case? I'm told I can't possibly know the difference because I'm a pet owner and don't have any Schutzhund experience. Somehow, I still think I could spot abuse should I actually see it.
by amysue on 11 September 2009 - 13:09
"To some, dogs and schutzhund is a business..."
You answered your own question. Of course there are others that are simply ignorant and following by example, and my peeve, those that are so competitve nothing will stand in their way. You will find this mentality in all parts of life. I wish just because we were all "dog lovers" that as a whole we were different... more like our dogs I guess.
You answered your own question. Of course there are others that are simply ignorant and following by example, and my peeve, those that are so competitve nothing will stand in their way. You will find this mentality in all parts of life. I wish just because we were all "dog lovers" that as a whole we were different... more like our dogs I guess.
by dAWgESOME on 11 September 2009 - 13:09
Here is my 2 cents-
People who are in any competitive dog event where there are winners & loosers (I'll even include conformation showing in that category) are motivated by one of two things and some a little bit of both. It is for PROFIT or PRIDE. You can still have a fun time along the way but I really feel it boils down to that.
While for the most part harmless, the evil comes out when the ego takes over and when the money starts flowing in that's when the compassion (for dogs & other humans) goes out the door.
by raymond on 11 September 2009 - 13:09
Perhaps I read it wrong but schutzhund was never intended to be a sport! It's intentions were to establish a set of parameters by which GSD would be evaluated ! The results of those evaluations would determine wether the dog was breed worthy! first it was work ! JMO and I am known to be wrong from time to time
by baja on 11 September 2009 - 13:09
Schutzhund is a sport. Part of which has a breed survey to see if a dog is breed worthy. If it was only to prove wether a dog is breed worthy you would have no need for the SchH-2 & 3 or the many other titles you can get. Being a sport it is a sport for the dog and the handler/trainer. There should be no abuse to the dog. That kind of pressure does not make a good dog it makes a dog that responds to commands out of fear not pleasure.
by michael49 on 11 September 2009 - 13:09
I don't think you're wrong Raymond,a very good test for a dog intended to do military/police,seeing eye,SAR,and many other things the dog was bred to do.I believe it has evolved to a sport now,and agree with dAWgESOME about some but not all.I think it has been taken to extremes in breeding and training for the reasons dAWgSOME stated.For the average person wanting a gsd as a companion, the [ bh] test in my opinion is all that' s needed.KitKat3478 I,m sure it's fun for most,but not for all.The dogs from what I see seem to enjoy the bitework the most,I wonder why that is LOL
by VomRuiz on 11 September 2009 - 15:09
Yes, in my opinion your dog should enjoy the sport if you are trying to title title it. Otherwise it's pure frustration for owner and dog. It should be enjoyable.
Remember that one of the most important parts of SchH is obedience. Your dog needs to be obedient. Preferably because it wants to but, most of the time a dog obeys for some type of reward (toy, treat.)
When it doesn't obey, it gets corrected. True, collars can be used abusively, but when the correction is given fairly and at the exact time, it is not abuse.
Apply the theory to taking your child to an amusement park. If your child is running wild and taking off in all directions, ignoring you, are you going to reward your child, or give it a fair correction? I use the amusement park as an example because my dog absolutely loves his training sessions. As soon as he sees his kennel in the back of his truck he is so excited. When we turn onto the road at the training field, he starts whining and barking, ready to have fun..Much like my kids do when we get somewhere FUN for them.
Not everyone involved in SchH is harsh, and not all dogs love it. If they don't, they shouldn't be used for it,
Just my opinion
Stacy
Remember that one of the most important parts of SchH is obedience. Your dog needs to be obedient. Preferably because it wants to but, most of the time a dog obeys for some type of reward (toy, treat.)
When it doesn't obey, it gets corrected. True, collars can be used abusively, but when the correction is given fairly and at the exact time, it is not abuse.
Apply the theory to taking your child to an amusement park. If your child is running wild and taking off in all directions, ignoring you, are you going to reward your child, or give it a fair correction? I use the amusement park as an example because my dog absolutely loves his training sessions. As soon as he sees his kennel in the back of his truck he is so excited. When we turn onto the road at the training field, he starts whining and barking, ready to have fun..Much like my kids do when we get somewhere FUN for them.
Not everyone involved in SchH is harsh, and not all dogs love it. If they don't, they shouldn't be used for it,
Just my opinion
Stacy
by Elkoorr on 11 September 2009 - 16:09
Agree with VomRuiz, very good analogy. Also dont forget that once on the competition field, all corrections are of limits, and there is no prong and no e-collar. If one has to use corrections so obsessively that it comes close to abuse, then the dog is most likely not able to function in a trial at all.
by steve1 on 11 September 2009 - 16:09
Firstly if Kit Kat feels that way herself towards the sport it is better she stay well out of it for the reason if she has any doubts in her mind at anyone stage whist she is training the dog will pick up on her negativity, that is for sure, but i hope not for she will enjoy it
I guess some do use a E Collar at times on certain dogs, but a prong collar is not cruel at all when used correctly and fairly, a Chain collar is worse and a collar which forces a dogs head down to stop it pulling is even crueler, I know some things you read go to the extremes with hanging dogs up but they are in the minority, and i have never seen it happen, One thing is certain you will not continue to abuse a German Shepherd Dog, It will turn on the handler at some point, I have watched on average around 16 to 20 Sch trials a year,
Some good trials some mediocre some really top trials with the best of the country in them,
I have never seen one dog abused in any one of them i did go twice to one club where a handler kicked his Dog three or four times during its work, in fact i said to him one day you will get your reward for doing it,
Yes and he did about 4 months later the Dog bit him. he is a good dog and he is fine so long as the owner handler does not now correct him in that manner, i met him after he had been bitten and i said you had your day then, of course the reply i got was not sociable but i gave him a big grin to let him know how i felt
Stacy is correct Obed is the key, all three phases in Sch stem from Obed of the dog
with Izzy i will get her walking without pulling on the leash using a leather collar and when she is walking by my side on a loose leash i will know the job will be much easier as she grows up, later on i will revert to a pinch collar as and when it is needed, but as she gets older and stronger a harder correction will be given but a fair one but one that she will know that i mean it and am not taking any slack from her, better to let the dog know right away no half hearted corrections when given that is very dangerous for the dog says to itself is that the best he or she can give and its confidence grows bit by bit until it is the boss of you,
Once the Dog gives itself to you, praise and reward, never carry on the correction a second time
If anyone has a dog who is the boss of the owner handler then the fun and shorter life span of the dog is inevitable, meaning the partnership will not survive, for the owner if not the boss will finally get rid of the dog through frustration and in the end the dog has a miserable life much like the use of E collars and hung up stuff used on it to get it to conform to what the then owner wants, much like this thread is all about, and this happens because the original owner did not do there job correctly and fairly to the dog
So which is best for both owner and dog that is for the owner to be sure they are the leader from the outset not the dog, once you get that bit sorted out both you and the Dog will have an enjoyable life together working in the sport you love or at home whichever suits
Steve
I guess some do use a E Collar at times on certain dogs, but a prong collar is not cruel at all when used correctly and fairly, a Chain collar is worse and a collar which forces a dogs head down to stop it pulling is even crueler, I know some things you read go to the extremes with hanging dogs up but they are in the minority, and i have never seen it happen, One thing is certain you will not continue to abuse a German Shepherd Dog, It will turn on the handler at some point, I have watched on average around 16 to 20 Sch trials a year,
Some good trials some mediocre some really top trials with the best of the country in them,
I have never seen one dog abused in any one of them i did go twice to one club where a handler kicked his Dog three or four times during its work, in fact i said to him one day you will get your reward for doing it,
Yes and he did about 4 months later the Dog bit him. he is a good dog and he is fine so long as the owner handler does not now correct him in that manner, i met him after he had been bitten and i said you had your day then, of course the reply i got was not sociable but i gave him a big grin to let him know how i felt
Stacy is correct Obed is the key, all three phases in Sch stem from Obed of the dog
with Izzy i will get her walking without pulling on the leash using a leather collar and when she is walking by my side on a loose leash i will know the job will be much easier as she grows up, later on i will revert to a pinch collar as and when it is needed, but as she gets older and stronger a harder correction will be given but a fair one but one that she will know that i mean it and am not taking any slack from her, better to let the dog know right away no half hearted corrections when given that is very dangerous for the dog says to itself is that the best he or she can give and its confidence grows bit by bit until it is the boss of you,
Once the Dog gives itself to you, praise and reward, never carry on the correction a second time
If anyone has a dog who is the boss of the owner handler then the fun and shorter life span of the dog is inevitable, meaning the partnership will not survive, for the owner if not the boss will finally get rid of the dog through frustration and in the end the dog has a miserable life much like the use of E collars and hung up stuff used on it to get it to conform to what the then owner wants, much like this thread is all about, and this happens because the original owner did not do there job correctly and fairly to the dog
So which is best for both owner and dog that is for the owner to be sure they are the leader from the outset not the dog, once you get that bit sorted out both you and the Dog will have an enjoyable life together working in the sport you love or at home whichever suits
Steve
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top