advice on food kibble and raw - Page 1

i have now been told twice now the way i am feeding is wrong so i need to sort it out
my dog gets feed twice a day about 7 in the morning then about 5 - 6 at night
i feed arden grange lamb and rice adult about half a cup with about 150grams of tripe once he has eaten that he gets a checken wing or 2 depens on size of them , 
he also gets other bones as well lamb or shank. plus treats when we are training

i was told that i shoud not feed kibble and raw together as they digest at different rates at present he has been feed like this for months and have not noticed any problems with him his stools are firm and dry due to the bone he has.

was told that kibble takes about 8 hours to digest and raw about 2 and if you mix them you screw up the digestion system  dont know if this is true or not.

any advice would be good cheers in advance

Bigtoddy,
I feed strictly raw.  I agree with what you have been told about the differences in digestion.  My understanding is that the kibble does digest slower than the raw.  The reason that dogs can eat raw food is that they process it very quickly and do not have problems with bacteria blooms or pathogens in their intestines.  That is why healthy dogs do not get ecoli or salmonella when fed raw.  If you add kibble and slow the digestive process down it takes longer to digest the raw and that is where the problems can arise.  I'm sure that their are many people on the PDB that can explain this better than me.  Many dog food manufacturers design their foods to create a "firm" stool and use this as a marketing tool.  Binders are added to the food to make "clean up" easier.  That is one reason it digests so slowly.   

Keep in mind that a dogs digestive system whether it's a poodle, GSD or mix is still virtually identical to a wolf's digestive system.  They are meant to eat raw, dry food is a major convenience for animal owners and a huge industry for the manufacturers. 

If I was going to feed raw and kibble I would split up the feedings and not feed them at the same time.  I may even feed raw on certain days and dry on other days.  For me the cost is only slightly higher to feed raw, it is definitely more work but I think the results are worth it. 

JMO,

Jim

You CAN feed kibble and raw together, I did for a long time before I switched to all raw. You need to add digestive enzymes however to break down the kibble, because yes, it takes a lot longer for the dog to digest than raw. The best supplement, because it was specifically formulated for this type of feeding is Berte's Zyme, obtainable from www.b-naturals.com If you are out of the country or don't want to be bothered buying on line look for something like ProZyme or do as the poster above suggested - feed raw and kibble separately.

Canine teeth are not designed for chewing, but for tearing and swallowing. Raw meat and bones contain enzymes and acids that help keep teeth clean, and also help to develope good musculature in the jaw and head. Dogs, as carnivores, have difficulty digesting grains and other complex carbohydrates. With the lack of digestive enzymes in the mouth, complex carbohydrates are not predigested, and take a long time to break down in the stomach, and small intestine, if they break down at all.



The digestive system depicted above - a carnivore - is the simplist among mammals. Other species, even humans, have a more or very much more extensive large intestine, and ruminants like cattle and sheep have a large set of forestomachs through which food passes before it reaches the stomach.

Each of the organs shown above contributes to the digestive process in several unique ways. If you were to describe their most important or predominant function, and summarize shamelessly, the list would look something like this:

Mouth: Foodstuffs are broken down mechanically by chewing and saliva is added as a lubricant. In some species, saliva contains amylase, an enzyme that digests starch.
Esophagus: A simple conduit between the mouth and stomach - clearly important but only marginally interesting compared to other regions of the tube.
Stomach: Where the real action begins - enzymatic digestion of proteins initiated and foodstuffs reduced to liquid form.
Liver: The center of metabolic activity in the body - its major role in the digestive process is to provide bile salts to the small intestine, which are critical for digestion and absorption of fats.
Pancreas: Important roles as both an endocrine and exocrine organ - provides a potent mixture of digestive enzymes to the small intestine which are critical for digestion of fats, carbohydrates and protein.
Small Intestine: The most exciting place to be in the entire digestive system - this is where the final stages of chemical enzymatic digestion occur and where almost almost all nutrients are absorbed.
Large Intestine: Major differences among species in extent and importance - in all animals water is absorbed, bacterial fermentation takes place and feces are formed. In carnivores, that's about the extent of it, but in herbivores like the horse, the large intestine is huge and of critical importance for utilization of cellulose.

Here is my take on it: I believe that granulated dog food causes bloat / torsion. How can I say that? In Czech, where I am from, some time ago, we did not have granulated dog food. There was no bloat. Then there came "convenience" of granulated dog food and we got bloat. Theories behind it is that granulated dog food turns in dog's stomach, into mush. And stomach being muscle does not get enough exercise on such mush. If the dog has in the stomach chunk of meat it must work on it and thus exercise. Strong muscle will not cause torsion as readily as weak stomach.
Nutritional value: Granulated dog food is dead food.Nutritional value  is always lesser and usually void of live enzymes(!!!), then that of a meat. Now people who are brainwashed by commercial companies about quality of balanced nutrition of organic kibble and all similar such jazz,  to them above statement seems out of whack. But I say; you can not improve on God or Nature (What ever you believe in). MEAT IS THE BEST DOG SUPPLEMENT / FOOD.
 Do this: Put on sun for 5 days meat on one dish and on other any kibble. What you see after 5 days? Meat is full of maggots and mold and you name it. Kibble is the same kibble without change. Now you are smiling. So what is your point you say . And to that I say; why would you feed your dog what not even MAGGOTS  want to eat?

raw or not raw. I recognize that raw food is the best. My problem is with parasites. Yes some of them get destroyed by freezing, but not all.
My recipe:
 Meat chunks (not hamburger); like chicken with flat bones and all the gristle. Organ like heart ,gizzards, chicken feet(Best source of glucosomine and chondroitine,HA.)  Deer meat is great. Salmon, Beef, Beef heart. Easy on liver(Diarrhea).Cook the meat VERY lightly so that you do not kill enzymes. 
Mix it with  cooked pasta.
Add blended RAW carrot and or apple, and parsley.(Vitamins, enzymes, minerals)
Pinch of sea salt (naturally balanced minerals)  you can ad 1/2 tea spoon of fish oil per dog.
Enjoy:)
Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com

Bump thank you much

OK, I understand what you are saying about the rate of digestion of kibble & raw.   But what is the problem with the kibble taking longer to digest?   I have been adding some raw meat to the dry food and everything seems fine. 

Maggie, did you really read the posts or just skim them? :) 

OK, I understand what you are saying about the rate of digestion of kibble & raw. But what is the problem with the kibble taking longer to digest

That is the problem!  The raw should digest faster and not be slowed down by the digestion of the kibble.  The problem is not with the kibble taking longer, but the raw taking longer because of the kibble. 

I agree with Hans, in regards to bloat.  I would be worried about bloat if I fed raw and dry together.  I had a dog bloat once on dry and it is a horrible experience.  I do feed raw hamburger along with chicken quarters plus other ingredients.  I feed very similar to what Hans recommended only I do not cook any meat and I don't add any pasta or carbs.  

FWIW,

Jim 

The raw goes through the digestion process so fast, that the bacteria doesn't really
pose a problem. If kibble is fed at the same time, the bacteria in raw can get into the slow
digesting kibble that may be in the stomach and small intestine for hours, or even
days.  This could cause some stomach upset and worse.