Litter size - Page 1

I have recently been looking to purchase a puppy and I have noticed that many litters that are born in Germany tend to be small. I was wondering if anyone has noticed that. I have seen on average about 4 pups in a litter. I thought the average litter size was 6-8. Does anyone know what is causing this? Thanks Damien PS: Does the SV place a limit on the number of pups a female can rear at once? Would this cause a breeder to kull the litter?

I would recommend you buy a book about the German Shepherd. Your questions cannot be answered in this forum. Complete chapters will tell you all about breeding, how many pups stay with the bitch, and what happens with the others (Ammen-Service), etc. There are quite a lot of rules and regulations. But again, too long to explain and write here. Have you thought about visiting a club where there are a lot of people who can help you out? NO PUPS are being killed! TSTSTS! What an idea!!

lighten up Jantie - why do you think the "guy's/gal's" handle is gimmie 10 minutes? Of course your questions can be answered here -- but they will be answered by people to are willing to devote time to novice people!! Small litter size is an issue of concern to many people -- if not -- it SHOULD BE. You would think correctly if you assume that an average litter would be about 6-8 pups. When you look at a german "pink paper" you will see males and females born alive,and additional numbers showing males,females stillborn and another set of numbers showing males/females -- and I believe this last classification is "died within first 36 hours -- but I could be wrong on that -- it is certainly pups not stillborn -but died shortly after certain timeframe?. Nutrition plays a big part - in the overall health of the bitch -- you cannot develop eggs, grow and whelp puppies if you do not have sufficient nutrition to do so. Not a lot of dogs 'over there' are fed commercial feeds. Many get all the nutrition the require from raw diets (if they are good ones) but this could be a factor. I am most concerned with pups that die after whelping -- is this due to heart problems? or something else? were they just not "thrifty" to begin with - and if so, why not. I have owned bitches who routinely had 11 - 16 puppy litters -- yes, the 16 puppy litter had 4 stillborn because it was way to difficult to continue whelping past 12 puppies -- All that were born alive stayed alive however, and ALL were over one pound (which I consider to be a normal healthy birth weight). Some smaller bitches may always have 4-6 pups. If they are healthy - who cares -- we are not generally shooting for quantity here - although some breeders more concerned with how much profit they will have from a litter are. Often - if you have small litters a lot - it is sometimes due to the fact the the bitches are being bred way too early in their cycle. People are impatient - popular stud dogs have other reservations - sometimes you cannot get 2 breedings -- all contribute to litter size -- when studied properly - using so many of the tests available now that were not available 20 years ago - you will see that a bitch can be bred way past the time people think they can. Too early in the cycle or wway too late can mean small litters also. Other factors are an overweight bitch or one that has been fed a diet too high in carbs -- Okay, I have just scratched the surface here -- perhaps others will be more willing to share what they know -- that would be from people who ACTUALLY know something -- not from sharp tongued knowitall's who tell you to go read a book !

I heard from couple of people that back in the old times in Germany... Breeders would kill (by drowning or by smashing the hammer against the head of the puppy) if their were a LARGE litter... I guess their were some kind of rules saying that you MUST has 6 puppies or down. Can somebody clarify me on this to see if its really true??!??!

If I am not mistaken, in reading Von Stephanitz's writings, the magic number was 8 pups. Anything over 8 pups the others were placed with a foster mother(dog), that had maybe lost her litter and still had milk, or had a small litter with enough milk for the foster pups. Now, don't jump all over me if the number is wrong, but this is what I am recalling at the moment. Stephen

culling (killing) of puppies was practiced more with the head than the heart- those were the pups that had birth deformities or anything obvious at birth that was not according to the standard. this practice has been discontinued (thankfully) for the most part- yes, stephanitz agreed that for a litter to come to full health & recieve optimal attention from dam, there mustn't be too many to overwhelm the bitch. pups were placed with foster mums frequently.

SGBH is right. For example, following the German tradition the Argentine GSD club, unless there was a foster mother dog, did not allow more than 8 puppies to be let alive. This practise was discontinued many years ago because some people, despite "inspections" would keep or sell the "overflow" withouth papers.

The SV allows litters of any size. They recommend that a forster mom is used for litters larger than 8 pups. If none is available the breeder can raise all pups. The SV even makes lists available to breeders so that they can find available forster moms. If more than 8 pups are raised by a female the SV imposes that a certain time elapses before the dam can be bred again. The SV papers lists all pups reported at birth, then lists separately those that were still-born, those that die later, and those that are raised by a foster mom. Shepherds have never really been known for throwing litters in the 2 digits. 6-8 is a full litter. Losses happen for all sort of reasons: inexperienced female, poor mothering skills, female laying on pups thus crushing or suffucating them, not enough milk, infected mammory glands = bad milk, pups fading, birth defects, infections or disease, inexperienced breeders, c-sections, bad vets, and a whole list of more things.

I find it surprising that people always assume that in Nature, where larger numbers of offspring actually means that nature has already calculated for larger losses, that we should beat the odds. We are already doing that to a huge extent. Losses are a natural part of breeding. Breeders that have few losses are very lucky. Some people can accept losses as a natural occurrance and will not help a pup beyond a certain point. Some people try to fight Nature all the way. When purchasing a pup, what would you rather have: A pup that made it on its own? Or a pup that was helped along the way to stay alive and without human intervention would most likely have died? I know what I want... If culling saves a dog from a lifetime of misery, then that would be the humane thing to do. To cull for mere cosmetic reasons, well.... no comment necessary. Numbers should always to be taken with a grain of salt. In the US the average GSD litter size would be 2.9 pups per litter in the last couple of years. Also keep in mind is that just because 3 pups are available, that does not mean that the litter only had 3 pups.

Guess you're all too lazy to read the regulations. They are posted on the SV-website and printed in numerous books. USE THEM! Correct me if I'm wrong, but this forum often looks like a bar, with too many (drunk) people having their own opinion and shooting the messengers. (Besides criticising the judges with their decades of experience.) JMHO 4.2.4 Wurfstärke Einer Hündin dürfen zur eigenen Aufzucht pro Wurf nicht mehr als acht Welpen belas-sen werden. Überzählige Welpen sind mit-tels einer Amme aufzuziehen. Der Verein un-terhält hierzu in jeder Landesgruppe Am-men- Vermittlungsstellen. Werden mehr als 8 Welpen bei der Mutterhündin belassen, darf die Hündin erst nach Ablauf von 6 Monaten nach dem Wurftag erneut gedeckt werden. 4.2.5 Ammenaufzucht Die zu verwendende Amme muss eine Wi-derristhöhe von mindestens 50 cm haben, kräftig und gesund sein und ein gutes We-sen besitzen. Einer Amme dürfen nur Welpen von einer fremden Hündin, und zwar höchstens acht, einschließlich der Welpen, die die Amme ge-worfen hat, untergelegt werden. Zieht eine Amme keinen eigenen Wurf auf, können Welpen aus zwei verschiedenen Würfen untergelegt werden, wenn die Wel-pen so gekennzeichnet sind, dass eine Ver-wechslung nicht möglich ist. Der Zuchtwart hat die Ammenaufzucht zu überwachen und die sichere Kennzeichnung zu bestätigen. Die Welpen sind spätestens am 10. Lebens-tag anzulegen. Die Ammenaufzucht muss vom zuständigen Zuchtwart im Wurfmelde-schein bzw. mit Ammenaufzuchtbescheini-gung (Formblatt) bestätigt werden. Die mit einer Amme aufgezogenen Welpen sind im Tätowierschein mit “A” zu kennzeichnen. Belegen einer Hündin ausschließlich zum Zwecke der Bereitstellung als Amme ist nicht statthaft. Die Verwendung von scheinträchtigen Hün-dinnen ist nicht gestattet. Wenn eine Hündin nach dem Werfen einge-gangen ist, kann Ammenaufzucht über den 10. Lebenstag der Welpen hinaus gestattet werden, wenn der LG-Zuchtwart oder das Zuchtbuchamt die Genehmigung erteilen. Bei der Welpenauswahl, spätestens am 10. Tag nach dem Wurf, sind nicht mehr als acht Welpen der Mutter zu belassen, die übrigen einer Amme zur Aufzucht unter Berücksich-tigung der vorstehenden Bestätigung zu übergeben. Welpen mit irgendwelchen Missbildungen, und solche, die auf längere Sicht nicht le-bensfähig scheinen oder den Wurfge-schwistern gegenüber zurückgeblieben sind, sind unabhängig von der Stärke des Wurfes, spätestens am 11. Tag schmerzlos und nur durch Hinzuziehen eines Arztes oder einer fachkundigen Person und nur un-ter Betäubung zu töten. In Sonderfällen ist die Hauptgeschäftsstelle einzuschalten. Jede andere von der natürlichen Aufzucht abweichende Art ist nicht statthaft. Afterklauen (Wolfskrallen) sind in der ersten Lebenswoche der Welpen sachgemäß zu entfernen. Die Welpen sind nicht vor ihrer Tätowierung abzugeben. Dieses auch nur insoweit, als sie gesund sind und keine ansteckenden Krankheiten im Zwinger herrschen. Welpen dürfen nur beim Aufzüchter täto-wiert werden. Sind Welpen in Ammenauf-zucht weggegeben worden, müssen diese zur Tätowierung zum Wurf zurückgeholt werden. (I'm sure Pineridge will help you out with the translation.)