Weak K9 almost gets handler killed - Page 1

Older..I believe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSJyY9tgIzk&feature=channel

I remember that video. That was a strickly narcotics K9 that had ZERO handler protection training at all.  She was working off instinct alone. She did her job and saved the officer. The K9 was also injured in the incident and had to be retired.

Dog was sent by the handler.
Ive seen the video in full. 
It was a single purpose drug dog, but the dog had some bite work training.

Training wasnt the issue, its a moot, Stupid point.

One 'hit' and the dog flees like a Cur.

If you think the issue with that dog was Training Over genetics, I will say youre a bigger fool than I thought you were.

I think there are a lot of weak dogs out there, passing for police dogs. It's not enough to bite and out. Many dogs can be trained to do these things. This was a weak dog, no fighting drive. If a dog has real fighting drive, he gets pumped up when challenged and doesn't feel pain, runs on adrenalyn and endorphins.
This bitch is just excitable, mainly. She ended up presenting a distraction enough to give the handler some time to cope with the bad situation, but she could have just as easily have complicated things even more. The handler saved himself, then. The dog just bought him a little bit of time.
I like a dog that's a little bit socially aggressive, and likes a fight, thinks he can take a man (one on one) and enjoys the adrenylin rush. THAT's a dog you can have a chance with, a dog that doesn't quit. That's generally born into a dog. You can mold it and control it and enhance it, but it's either there or it isn't. It's a waste of time and dangerous to think that you can train any dog to bite and that it will really fight a big, intimidating man who will generally be fighting back (by the way), not crying like a baby.
Probably the best dog you could have would be one you had to pry off of a man, but you can't have that.. You've got to have control. Just don't make the mistake to see a circus show of a dog barking, biting and outing and think you have a push button law enforcement tool. It's real hard to get the perfect balance, but I'd rather err on the dog that's going to give me a chance to survive.

I watched the film before reading any comments.  To me it looked like the dog kept approaching the suspect to protect her handler.  Granted I would have expected her to be more agressive had she been a bite dog but after hearing she was a single purpose narcotics dog who was injured in the incident I don't think she did too badly.  
I guess the only way to improve this type of situation is for all LEO K9's to be dual trained for narcotics & protection or tracking & protection.  It is not impossible and well worth the time, money & effort. 
Teri     

I would have to second what Teri just said . I think if the dog is going to be a Police K9 then it should be crossed trained. If it is worlking  where there is a low aggression jop like customs then single purpose if fine . But when it comes to a street LEO and their life is on the line  you want that extra protection for the "what if" 

EK

Question...
 
  If she was a single purpose narcotics dog, why was she involved in the first place? Why was she even in the picture?

  She would have definitely done better with more training. But, a bad experience like this will tend to put a damper on any further progress in bite training for a lot of dogs. Getting pistol whipped in the head / face is not something I would expect a lot of dogs to take. But, not every dog is cut out to be a police K9. This dog would be fine for a personal protection candidate, maybe hobby sport. That's about the end of it.

  What bothers me is the way she kept bobbing in and out. A good dog would go right in and start fighting. The harder the man fights, the more they pour it on.

  If a dog is circling at a distance, they can easily be kicked, shot, etc. .. though they would provide a good distraction if they circled and barked. But, the suspect knows the dog is basically a punk and can be dealt with. His attention is going to turn to the cop, who he knows is the real threat. So, that distraction would probably only buy you a few moments.

  When a dog is really ON you, biting you and pressing in / climbing up on you, it's pretty hard to deal with. You can't really hit him hard enough to do a lot of damage, especially if he's pulling you off balance.. How are you going to get in a shot? This guy had a clean shot. Lucky he missed. 
  Again if a dog is into you close and moving up towards your neck and face, or hanging off of you and shaking / pulling you down, you're going to be too busy dealing with that dog to get off a good shot at the handler. About the only thing you could do is to try to scrape him off on something or fall down on top of him, and even that will not deter a good dog. They just get more riled up and fight harder!

Teri and EK..

   With all due respects, I agree that dual purpose K9s should be certified, but I am trying to say that there are not that many dogs which are GENETICALLY good enough to do justice to both jobs, or even to one. It's not a matter of training. It's a matter of foundation, and the genetics are the foundation. Either the dog has it in it's nature, laid down on genetics and serendipity, or it does not have it. No amount of training will make a mediocre dog a great dog, and only great dogs should be used in law enforcement. It's not a job for every dog, anymore than law enforcement careers are something any human can do.

  When I say "serendipity" is a factor (as well as genetics) I mean to say that even with a great pedigree, the litter may be unsuitable for this work, or more likely, only one or two would be good enough. The reason for this is really pretty simple, but apparently beyond the ability of many people to understand, i.e. that it is the nature of pack canids that not all will be equal in characteristics, especially social drives. Variation and especially social variation is built into the canids as a way of coping with varying / changing environmental factors and social dynamics. This is one of the most clever adaptations of dogs, which many people miss entirely.

  So, you do a great breeding, and there are many hurdles to cross, along the way, which can pass or fail the dog as a police K9 prospect. Just as in nature, only a few out of a litter may qualify, and in this case maybe only one or two out of a litter of eight.. maybe none. YOU HOPE that invisible problems like HD or elbow dysplasia don't knock out your one otherwise excellent prospect. I call this the "genetic Rubik's cube effect". You need all the good traits on the same dogs, and all the undesirable traits on a few, but this is not what happens. It's really like playing a lottery ticket. The more qualifiers you have, the more dogs you are going to dismiss as unsuitable. This is why it is so critically important to start with the best breeding stock you can get, with as few bad recessives as possible, and the first thing you have to do is test nerves. 

  There is a disturbing trend to watering down working dogs and making them sort of "politically correct". Surely, the brokers don't mind this a bit. They can sell a lot more dogs, potentially, because many mediocre dogs can be found, and many of them can be taught to bark, bite and release. The dog which would make a great K9 should be a bit of a rooster, and able to be socially competitive.. so that he relishes a good fight with a man. He should also be very stable and trainable. A good dog like this is not "mean" per se and can be very much under control, but the handler has to be really partnered up with the dog and serious about getting the most out of him. Bad handling also can ruin otherwise good dogs.

  The other side of the fence.. There are a lot of really raw, pumped up dogs which lack much training and control which have also been sold to police departments, for many years past. They may bite like hell, but they require constant pressure and heavy tactics to keep them clean, OR they become a liability to the agency / municipality that owns / deploys them.

  It's really a delicate balance to get the best, but the main point I wish to make is that the foundation of all good working dogs is genetic in nature (whether it is planned, or not) and then the first acid test is individual selection. Sometimes it happens that you can get a great mutt with no papers, and sometimes the best breedings will make disappointing results, but nevertheless, the foundation is always genetic. Good dogs are born good, not made, not trained. This is an inescapable fact! Good breeding only increases your chances of creat

Continuing truncated message..

Good breeding only increases your chances of creating / supplying / finding such dogs, but even in the best case scenario it is highly unlikely that all the puppies from a litter will be equally gifted and thus, individual testing and selection is still the only tool to select the best candidates for the very exhaustive and expensive process of training and building a great dog. The thing is, that when you do find that really good candidate, it can be very exciting.. They can train up pretty fast and well, as if they were born to do the work, which they are.

When you consider that this dog can make the difference of life or death, it is not time wasted, and all considered, this is one of the reasons that the breeding of purebred dogs in family environments should be defended at all costs, because it is, and has been very helpful to our military and law enforcement to have a large population of dogs to draw from. US Customs used to get their dogs from the public impounds (shelters). Things have changed a bit, and now dogs can be bought much more easily from Europe, but there seem to be still not enough really good dogs to fill a growing world demand.