Why Do People Breed GSD's W No Titles And KkLs???? - Page 16

MJD80 Can you please clarify something for me?  You said:

"If you live in Germany, you may not breed without aquiring Schutzhund titles, a breed survey, a conformation rating, hip (spine and elbow) xrays and a certificate of endurance."

Is this a new rule?  It was my understanding dogs could be bred and registered, but without breed survey (which requires title, conformation rating,  hip/elbow scores, AD) you would get white papers rather than pink.   Also is the spine xray a new SV requirement for breeding too?

Thanks for straightening out my confusion, Molly.      So no breed survey, white papers, if both are surveyed pink papers and if both are surveyed but after the litter is born the puppies papers can be amended to pink?

HELD:  I know this thread has become very popular with a lot of people talking, so it is understandable you didn't notice, but I just realized both Molly and Rik addressed your question before I did.

Sueincc,

Yes, it is possible and thank you for pointing it out. I should clarify this. Actually, a dog can be a purebred GSD and recognized as such with an official piece of paper from the SV (GSD club of Germany), although such are seldom found in the community of breeders and competitors.

Would you or your friends breed to a dog that was not proven suitable? Yes, the SV will "register" lower quality dogs, such as allowed under this provision, for example:

"Working-title Dog Registry: The Gebrauchshund registry contains dogs with or without proven ancestry but with the corresponding breed attributes." That is, if they look like GSDs. They have their own sort-of registry.

However, "Section 4.1.2 Dogs suitable for breeding" (says):

"Dogs suitable for breeding are those who have been breed surveyed to Körklasse 2 at an SV breed survey."

That logically and legally means that dogs without a minimum Kkl-2 are NOT suitable for breeding. Allowed, yes, and I admit I should have made that distinction clear. Thank you for pointing out the fine line that I did not enlarge upon. But such dogs are highly discouraged from entering, or contributing to, the gene pool and are in a miniscule minority of the GSD population.

Since there is relatively very little use or interest in the so-called “white papers” (pale green) and other certificates, compared to those who breed, show or train GSDs in competitions, I originally neglected to include these other types of “Rasse-Echtheitszertifikats” (Breed authenticity certificates). By the way, the Zuchtordnung (breeding rules), in Section 3.2, says:

“Tattooers —Tattooing them is a requirement for registration” (regardless of what color the papers are).

There are several types of breed-purity certificates issued by the SV. Whichever variety, the SV calls it “The most important paper that a German Shepherd Dog buyer must receive. Only an association like the SV, recognized by the FCI and VDH, issues it. No dog without this passport can be considered as a purebred German Shepherd Dog.” All have information on 30 ancestors in 4 generations behind the dogs they are issued for, including such info as brothers and sisters, performance (protection dog exam) records, colors, training titles, show ratings, and breed surveys of the ancestors. The most desirable are the “pink papers” well-known to owners.


Now, to be allowed breeding rights in the SV system, all dogs must be entered in the studbook, and possess on the date of mating a training degree such as SchH 1-3, IP 1-3, HGH, or an equivalent acknowledged training degree, obtained under an SV judge [that applies to German-resident dogs]. The SchH or IP title must include a score of at least 80 points in phase C (protection). In addition, at an SV conformation show or breed survey they must have the breed evaluation of at least “Good”, and have both the “a” stamp for hips and a DNA archives number marked in the Ahnentafel. The DNA record is essential for dogs born after July 1, 1999. For dogs bred in foreign countries, which are to be bred in Germany, the DNA information is required regardless of their whelping dates. Two classes of breeding animals are hereby distinguished.


I hope this answered everything and again I apologize for the misunderstanding and I hope this helped!

Best regards,

Also,

Under the “Rasse-Echtheitszertifikat” (all since Jan. 1979 have this title) heading on your certificate and genealogical table, there is another — one of four classifications:

1.Körzucht-Leistungszucht-Ahnentafel: The “best” kind, given if both parents are angekört (have passed the breed-survey) and all the ancestors in the second generation listed on the inside sheet of the pedigree paper (the grandparents) have received a training title such as SchH/IP or HGH. Incidentally, the Sieger Show has additional Ahnentafel requirements of angekört for the grandparents, in order to get into the VA classification at that annual show. This has kept great dogs like Hoss Lärchenhain and Karat’s Ulk from getting VA in recent years.

2.Körzucht-Ahnentafel: This form applies to dogs whose parents animals both are angekört, but allows for one or more grandparents to be missing a training degree.

3.Leistungszucht-Ahnentafel: Both parents must meet the requirements of the Zuchtordnung (I have a good translation available for websites), and correspond to the breed type and ancestry as recognized by the SV; however, it is permissible to have at least one of them without angekört, although the grandparents have training titles.

4.Ahnentafel: This basic type of pedigree paper (without the descriptor “Leistungszucht” — loosely, “performance dog”) is possible if one or both of the parents correspond to the breed rules, but one or more grandparents cannot be proven to have a training title.


The Ahnentafel also offers a section for breed-book and official breed survey notes, such as: if the dog was angekört, and if so, in which class and for what time period. Recorded also in the Ahnentafel is the Körmeister’s evaluation and appraisal for the dog - an important document, which plays a role in evaluations of younger dogs, special shows, or when doing schutzhund examinations.

Is the Ahnentafel merely paper stuff? No – it is an important document, useful for not only a particular dog, but also its whole breed. As The SV website says: “Die Papiere: Ahnentafeln sind kein Stammbaum” (The Papers: Genealogical tables are not [JUST] a family tree).

MJD80 When you copy and paste an entire article, word for word,  from another site, you need to also include a link to that article, or at the very least, give credit to the author.  Otherwise people might be inclined to believe you are attempting to plagarize or pass off what you just wrote as your own:
http://www.siriusdog.com/registration-breeding-rights-responsibilities.htm  

and again (word for word) from this article:

 http://www.siriusdog.com/requirements-breeding-in-outside-germany.htm

You can either edit your post and pretend you never intended to plagarize, you can make up something about how you just forgot to credit Fred Lanting,  you can go off on another temper tantrum and attack me for pointing out your dishonesty, or you can apologize (yet another one of your apologies) it makes no difference to me.

Sue, ¶At least he "got" the issue and his post may, hopefully, help others to understand. Yes, attribution would have been nice. It could have been a mere oversight. But, maybe not beat him bloody pubicly for the lack of proper attribution. He's done worse. :-)

It's called plagarism, MJD80 you did it, not me.

It doesn't matter, this isn't school, this is a forum.

Get real, you are living in a fantasy. How many people post articles, videos on here? HOW MANY? You keep proofing that you are the troll and you are the starter. You are starting these fights you can't finish and you are the one ruining all these good threads and hurting yourself.

This is a forum where people post information, they post facts, you have a hidden agenda and you are filthy but that's ok I can live with it.

Oli, will take care of it sooner or later once he sees what's going on and how I been acting and how you've been acting. I am sure he has common sense and will do the right thing.

Next time you try to hurt my feelings please step your game up because right now you are not looking that great and you're doing a good job of making yourself look like a troll. From what I can tell you're more worried about me and other non GSD related topics which is pretty sad.

Keep the fuel on fire, you'll suffer from it at the end, not me.

Best regards,