Sable x Sable = Blk & Tan - Page 1

Hi all! I was reading about color genetics and I came across this thread heading when I was searching the archives but it appears that the thread has been removed. I am another who finds color genetics interesting. I know this mating can produce what it says. My dogs dark sable sire and pattern sable dam produced atleast one dark blk/tan pup in each litter. They were mated several times. The majority of the pups were sable in color.
According to my dogs registration papers:
  Her sire:dark sable--his sire-blk/red-dam blk/tan;
  Her dam:pattern sable--her sire-sable-dam blk/tan
My dogs sire was mated with other sable females and produced blk pups. Well they  look solid black in photos. Ive read some of the older threads on color genetics and learned that each parent carries only two color genes.  Now because my dogs sire is sable he has to carry the sable gene, is that correct? He has produced sable,dark blk/tan and solid blk pups mated with sable females. What would be his two color genes that he carries? From what ive been reading he would have to carry sable, since he is sable and a recessive for black in order to produce blk pups, but he also produced blk/tan pups. 
My dogs dam , as far as I know, has only had pups sired by my dogs sire.
   This is not meant to be anything negative about my dogs breeder. I am just wanting to learn about the color genetics. Thanks for any information.
Donna

Your male carries sable and black, because he produced black puppies, and a black pup must receive the black from the mother, and from the father.

Tiger Dragon, thanks for your reply. The dog I am referring to is my dogs sire. He belongs to the breeder I got my dog from.
Donna

Every sable is capable of producing black and tan/red dogs. I have paired two sables in the past and got lots of black and red puppies with only one sibling being sable. It is a roll of the dice of how many or any offspring is sable.
Black can only be produced if both parents carry the gene (regardless if they themselves are black and tan/red or sable). If your male produced black puppies, he obviously is a carrier of the black gene.
For sable offspring, only one parent needs to be sable. But sable can never be a recessive, therefore no black or black and tan will ever produce a sable puppy, even if the second, third etc. generations has sable dogs.
On the other hand, you do not need a black dog to produce black puppies, only two carriers as parents, because the black gene is recessive, and recessive genes are hidden unless paired up with an identical recessive gene.

But if two HOMOZYGOUS sable dogs breed they can only give sable. not black/red?

Im confused now. According to my dogs pedigree her sires, sire and dam are both blk and red/tan dogs. How is it then that if one parent must be sable in order to produce a sable, my dogs sire is sable , himself? There are sable dogs in the next generation back. 
I  am figureing too that since my dogs sire produced blk/tan pups bred with a sable female, that he threw the blk recessive and she threw the blk.tan gene, that would mask the blk? Is this right?
Donna

Oso,
it is enough to breed only one homozygous sable to any permissable color and he will only produce sable. Remember that sable is dominant over any other color. A recent example of such a dog is Ellute vd Mohnwiese.

dcagsd,
two black and tans will never produce a sable. If somebody claims such a thing, I would demand DNA testing.
My last litter was with a black and red sire and a solid black dam. The sire did not carry the black gene, so none of my puppies were black. But since their mother is a solid black, all puppies are black carriers. A black dog  can only pass on a black gene, even to her non-black offspring. So logically, all offspring of solid black dogs are 100% carriers.

Silbersee, I have done some more searching on the older color threads and found that my dogs grandsire(farthers sire) may indeed be sable. I have pm'd the dogs owner,trainer,handler about this issue. To me, the dog appears to be blk/red but upon closer observation, he has the lighter rings of fur around his eyes like the sables are known for. I looked at that dogs info and there is just some letters for his coloration. I dont know what they stand for. I will look again and post the letters for his coloring. Maybe you or someone else will know what they stand for.
Here is the letters used for color classification on the dogs pedigree info:dgrbgew. Anyone know what this means?
Donna

dgrbgew means dunkel-graubraun-gewoelkt! Translation would be dark gray brown clouded!
I don't know who you dog's sire or grandsire is, so I can't give you an answer on that. Do you have a link to the pedigree?

Silbersee, I sent you a PM.
Donna