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by Rexy on 10 May 2009 - 17:05
I have always been under the impression that fear aggression in dogs was a reaction caused by nervousness of a situation where the dog feels threatened or cornered with no escape. The fear biter I have understood to be a dog that would preferably run away from a fearsome situation and when unable to make an escape, reacts with unpredictable aggression, snapping, lunging in hope of eradicating the perceived threat. In the GSD, I have understood that in fear aggression, the tail will be held between the legs, the ears layed back flat and with initial backing away from the threat with the appearance of bering scared of the situation before the aggression and lunging begins???.
Recently, I have been told of several GSD's diagnosed with fear aggression that are primarily hard dogs that demonstrate typical territorial and stranger aggression that are confident dogs, ears up, tail up, come over my back fence and I will tear you apart attitudes on the front line if anything suspicious occures. These GSD's I am familiar with, don't run and hide.
Not having the knowledge of GSD's as many of the contributors here do, where is the line between fear aggression and protective aggression as the differences I have heard recently don't make much sense to me???.
Recently, I have been told of several GSD's diagnosed with fear aggression that are primarily hard dogs that demonstrate typical territorial and stranger aggression that are confident dogs, ears up, tail up, come over my back fence and I will tear you apart attitudes on the front line if anything suspicious occures. These GSD's I am familiar with, don't run and hide.
Not having the knowledge of GSD's as many of the contributors here do, where is the line between fear aggression and protective aggression as the differences I have heard recently don't make much sense to me???.
by Red Sable on 10 May 2009 - 19:05
I agree with your first assessment. The second scenario sounds like territorial aggression, not fear.
by darylehret on 10 May 2009 - 21:05
Whoever made those diagnosis, would have been more accurate to say "territorial aggression, with sharpness", and often is confused with fear. Some trainers (usually PP) understand and actually prefer a greater sharpness (low threshold to respond with aggression).
This pic is of a dog with a high level of suspicion, alert and ready to respond, but still deciding whether or not the situation demands it. This dog is territiorial, but no fear or sharpness, just suspicious at first. Until he can determine if a threat is present from the vehicle that just approached, he tenses and postures, deep bellows a little bit from his chest, but isn't too quick to react excessively (sharp).
This pic is of a dog with a high level of suspicion, alert and ready to respond, but still deciding whether or not the situation demands it. This dog is territiorial, but no fear or sharpness, just suspicious at first. Until he can determine if a threat is present from the vehicle that just approached, he tenses and postures, deep bellows a little bit from his chest, but isn't too quick to react excessively (sharp).
by Mindhunt on 11 May 2009 - 01:05
Rexy, this is what I have learned (and I am far from an expert) so take it with a grain of salt
Fear aggression is like the school bully who is all tough and aggressive because he/she wants to mask the fear. The old I'll get them so bad they won't notice how afraid I really am. Doggie body language is mouth closed, ears submissive, dock or base of tail is tight (I have seen fear aggressive dogs that do not tuck tail but keep base of tail tight, rest of tail less than half-mast if that makes sense). The big flags for me along with the afore mentioned are corners of mouth pulled back and the dog generally gets still and stops breathing just before the bite. I think of the bite as the equivalent of a person pushing someone else away when all the other signals failed, dogs don't have hands so they use their mouth.
The other aggression has the base of the tail up, ears forward, body squared up (think fighters in a ring before the fight starts), eyes hard, and mouth closed. Just before the bite, dog stops breathing and corners of the mouth go forward.
I generally don't worry about labeling it, I am more concerned with what the dog is telling me so I have more information to work with, labeling for me brings preconcieved ideas and limits solutions and fluid problem solving, but that is just my 2 cents and like teeth, almost everyone, including me has a few
Fear aggression is like the school bully who is all tough and aggressive because he/she wants to mask the fear. The old I'll get them so bad they won't notice how afraid I really am. Doggie body language is mouth closed, ears submissive, dock or base of tail is tight (I have seen fear aggressive dogs that do not tuck tail but keep base of tail tight, rest of tail less than half-mast if that makes sense). The big flags for me along with the afore mentioned are corners of mouth pulled back and the dog generally gets still and stops breathing just before the bite. I think of the bite as the equivalent of a person pushing someone else away when all the other signals failed, dogs don't have hands so they use their mouth.
The other aggression has the base of the tail up, ears forward, body squared up (think fighters in a ring before the fight starts), eyes hard, and mouth closed. Just before the bite, dog stops breathing and corners of the mouth go forward.
I generally don't worry about labeling it, I am more concerned with what the dog is telling me so I have more information to work with, labeling for me brings preconcieved ideas and limits solutions and fluid problem solving, but that is just my 2 cents and like teeth, almost everyone, including me has a few
by Two Moons on 11 May 2009 - 02:05
I would have to see the dog myself and not try to decide from a description of the behavior.
There is much body language, behavior and posturing that needs to be observed.
Fear always begins with avoidance, hesitation.
There is much body language, behavior and posturing that needs to be observed.
Fear always begins with avoidance, hesitation.
by Rexy on 11 May 2009 - 12:05
Thanks for your responses, much appreciated.
It was a couple of obediance club trainers who diagnosed which were ultimately not well socialised GSD's that misbehaved at training sessions with aggression towards other participants and their dogs that were diagnosed as fear aggressive. The trainers asked questions in regards to the dog's behavior at home with strangers approaching if they barked fiercely at the gate which they do. They explained the behavior is based upon fear which from my experiences with these GSD's and my own GSD, there is no fear attached to the behavior that I could notice at all.
My GSD boy is stranger aggressive left unsupervised and would make his day for an intruder to come over the back fence with no fear or hesitation attached whatsoever. I didn't believe that territorial aggression in a GSD in general terms is sparked by fear.
It was a couple of obediance club trainers who diagnosed which were ultimately not well socialised GSD's that misbehaved at training sessions with aggression towards other participants and their dogs that were diagnosed as fear aggressive. The trainers asked questions in regards to the dog's behavior at home with strangers approaching if they barked fiercely at the gate which they do. They explained the behavior is based upon fear which from my experiences with these GSD's and my own GSD, there is no fear attached to the behavior that I could notice at all.
My GSD boy is stranger aggressive left unsupervised and would make his day for an intruder to come over the back fence with no fear or hesitation attached whatsoever. I didn't believe that territorial aggression in a GSD in general terms is sparked by fear.
by Two Moons on 11 May 2009 - 17:05
Trainers...lol
Like I said you have to see the behavior not hear about it...
Like I said you have to see the behavior not hear about it...
by Mindhunt on 12 May 2009 - 00:05
I agree with Two Moons, it is something that has to be seen under different circumstances with different stimuli to make a well informed diagnosis.
by RIN TIN TIN on 13 May 2009 - 06:05
How about a dog that has its hackles up when seeing other dogs but tail is up,ears straight and front ,barking aggressively and moving forward,does this body language demonstrate fear?
by Red Sable on 13 May 2009 - 12:05
IMO raised hackles does not always mean fear, it could also mean excitement.
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