Black genetics question

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by oso on 05 May 2009 - 00:05

I first posted this under the thread color intensity, but it may be more appropriate in a new thread. I have not had any prior experience of breeding blacks and have not studied the genetics and the combinations that can give blacks etc. (I just know about sable /black and red combinations). At the moment, though, I have a black female at my kennel for breeding with my sable male (showline, no black ancestors). The black female was a product of a mating between a sable female and a black/red male, both from showlines with, as far as I am aware, no black individuals in their ancestry - yet if black is recessive both her parents must have carried the black allele? I am sure she is not bicolor, there is no sign of any brown on her. OK, this female has already had one litter. She was bred to another showline sable male (again no known black ancestors) and all the puppies were solid black. The owner of the female is looking to breed blacks and dark sables that are also good in conformation. He says these two colours are the only possible outcomes from this breeding with my male - is this correct?

by jdh on 05 May 2009 - 01:05

What you will get depends largely upon the recessives carried by your male, as even black/red would dominate over a single black allele. Typical results would be 50% sable, the rest determined by whatever recessive pattern gene your male carries. If it is black you would get 50% blacks (on average, and supposing that the female is indeed genetic recessive black). If your males recessive allele is black/red you could expect 50% blk/red. In either case all patterned progeny would be single allele carriers of black, since the bitch can only contribute the black allele.
If you can review past breedings by the last sable stud, and ascertain that breedings to black/red (saddle) females produced sables and b/r/saddles, this would be a strong indicator that he was indeed carrying the black allele. The same goes for YOUR stud. Over several breedings (preferably hundreds) simple mathematics can generally pinpoint the genotype of any dog. Jonah

by gimme10mins on 05 May 2009 - 01:05

OSO what are the lines of your dogs? It is very rare almost non existant to see German Showlines produce solid blacks. I own two showline females and have bred them both to a solid black and have not gotten any black pups. I would like to know your lines. You can PM if you dont' want to disclose this information to others.

by oso on 05 May 2009 - 02:05

This is the pedigree of my male: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/551100.html And this is the other male that produced only black puppies with the black female: www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/555566.html Both of these males have bred with B/R saddle females and produced sable and b/r sadle combinations as expected. I know the names of the parents of the black female but they are not registered here and I do not know their lines (but I know they are show not working lines), will try to look through some past show catalogues as I cannot speak to the owner until tomorrow..

by katjo74 on 05 May 2009 - 04:05

Shoot-I've bred 4 100% West German blk/red show line bitches with no known black 9+ generations back to a majority show line solid black stud (same stud) and got plenty of black pups in the past three years out of ALL 4 bitches bred-not just one or two. It is possible and does occur, gimme10. All AKC and all DNA profiled for integrity.
That IS peculiar that a solid black was produced out of a showline blk/red and a sable parent-I would consider AKC DNA profiling.... They both could've been black carriers and thus had a 25% potential to produce black pups and hence this female was produced, but its a rarity....there's no other way to explain how a black was produced out of both parents being dominant colors (blk/red and sable), unless you consider possible litter contamination by another stud unaware.

Any dominant gene in there can potentially pop out if its in the mix. Sable, bi-color, or black (even tho black is indeed resessive to the blk/red, bi-color and sable colors). Sounds like this girl throws her color strong, tho, even if she's recessive in color. Interesting. I would definitely love to see a pedigree for this black showline bitch.

by katjo74 on 05 May 2009 - 04:05

Dizzi de Bermeo A/APP/4138 No info is provided from this connection onward-if this dog has any black in it anywhere by chance, then it would explain where the black comes from for the female. Do you have the pedigree info for this dog?

by gimme10mins on 05 May 2009 - 05:05

katjo please send me a link to your dogs pedigree. I would really love to see this because I rarely see a predominantly black showline dog. I would love to add that to my kennel. I bred two of my showline bitches to the same solid black who is DDR and West German Showlines and I didn't any blacks. Both females comes from very different lines. I never have seen these solid black showline puppies advertised because I would definately buy one.

by SchHBabe on 05 May 2009 - 13:05

To produce black puppies out of non-black parents requires that both sire and dam carry the black recessive gene.

Gimme10, breeding a black and tan (red) female to a black male will NOT produce black puppies unless the female herself carries the black recessive gene. However, puppies from a black X B&T cross will carry the black recessive gene even though they do not show it. Breed one of these pups to a black dog or a dog that carries black recessive and then you will get those black pups you want.

by oso on 05 May 2009 - 14:05

OK, I made a mistake in my first post. The mother of the black female is also black, it was her mother that came from a mating with a b/r showline male and sable female, in this litter the breeder was very surprised to get a black male and female, the rest were b/r. The black female, Sayra, was mated with another b/r showline male to get Kamila, the female that is now breeding with my dog. There is no chance that parents were mixed up. But this means that a lot of dogs involved here must have carried the black recessive allele - the grey and b/r parents of Kamila's mother, Kamila's father, the grey dog she bred with first time..strange as they are all show lines. Anyway, I am going to try to get a copy od her pedigree later today and will post details asap. Dizzi de Bermeo is in the pedigree of the first male who bred with Kamila, I do not know her ancestry but I am pretty sure she was b/r.

by wuzzup on 05 May 2009 - 14:05

Try looking up Cosalta Kennels . Looks like from my reading she started out with mostly Americam show lines in 1923 to 1961 .She owned and bred Silid blacks along with other colors . Looks like she had some good wins with her American bred solid blacks back in her day .She did use some import studs so check out her pedigress . Could be your dogs go back on her .Alot of her dogs carry the Cosalta name in there pedigrees ..Just a thought and some good old history . Not to bad a read either .

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