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by gimme10mins on 04 May 2009 - 03:05
Hello All,
I'm sure this topic has been discussed in great detail. I have not been able to find the thread, but when doing a solid black to a black and red breeding, does the solid back dog have anything to do with the intensity of the red color on the puppies or does all that come from the non black parent? I know the solid black dog will increase the amount of black on the offspring and it will darken the nose leather and skin. Does a black dog have any genes to contribute to the intensity of the color in the puppies?
Thanks,
Gimme
I'm sure this topic has been discussed in great detail. I have not been able to find the thread, but when doing a solid black to a black and red breeding, does the solid back dog have anything to do with the intensity of the red color on the puppies or does all that come from the non black parent? I know the solid black dog will increase the amount of black on the offspring and it will darken the nose leather and skin. Does a black dog have any genes to contribute to the intensity of the color in the puppies?
Thanks,
Gimme

by Uber Land on 04 May 2009 - 04:05
you would have to look at his colored ancestors to see if he will redden up the pups. if he has rich red sable or blk/tan siblings, then yes, he may darken up the red. but if he has pale or washed out siblings, he may do the opposite

by Kaffirdog on 04 May 2009 - 17:05
When I have mated my solid black dog to black and red, I have had deeper and more extensive black marking, but the brown has been rich tan (he has no black and reds in his pedigree). So far he has not produced and really red pups, but one of the black and tans produced black and red with deep black saddles when mated to a black and red.
Margaret N-J
Margaret N-J
by jdh on 04 May 2009 - 21:05
Black is the most recessive pattern gene, so a TRUE black is genetically homogeneous for black.Black being recessive, a black dog could be the offspring of two pale sables or pale black/browns.In this case intensity of pigment would resemble that seen in the parents and in the partner.
The black gene itself is completely unrelated to intensity of pigment, and a black dog could well sire a whole litter of pups with pale washed out color. IF the dog IS a genetic black (100% black progeny without exception when bred to genetic black partners) you MUST look to the coloration of the nearest patterned ancestors for an indication of the pigment density genetics of the dog.
.
. Some blacks are NOT genetic blacks, but bicolors with a high percentage of black coverage. In this case, you could expect 50% bicolors (more or less) and potential improvement of black saddle coverage when bred to a partner with a somewhat receeding saddle.
You can look in the area of the dewclaws for brown markings which would indicate a genetic bicolor.
NO PATTERN WILL IMPROVE PIGMENT. DO NOT BELIEVE SPURIOUS THEORIES TO THE CONTRARY.
The only improvement to pigment is through breeding to dogs of STRONG pigment.
I hope this little discussion has been helpful. There are some very good overviews of canine genetics in the books by Malcolm B. Willis: "Genetics of the Dog" and "The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History"
Best Wishes, Jonah
The black gene itself is completely unrelated to intensity of pigment, and a black dog could well sire a whole litter of pups with pale washed out color. IF the dog IS a genetic black (100% black progeny without exception when bred to genetic black partners) you MUST look to the coloration of the nearest patterned ancestors for an indication of the pigment density genetics of the dog.
.
. Some blacks are NOT genetic blacks, but bicolors with a high percentage of black coverage. In this case, you could expect 50% bicolors (more or less) and potential improvement of black saddle coverage when bred to a partner with a somewhat receeding saddle.
You can look in the area of the dewclaws for brown markings which would indicate a genetic bicolor.
NO PATTERN WILL IMPROVE PIGMENT. DO NOT BELIEVE SPURIOUS THEORIES TO THE CONTRARY.
The only improvement to pigment is through breeding to dogs of STRONG pigment.
I hope this little discussion has been helpful. There are some very good overviews of canine genetics in the books by Malcolm B. Willis: "Genetics of the Dog" and "The German Shepherd Dog: A Genetic History"
Best Wishes, Jonah
by oso on 04 May 2009 - 22:05
This is slightly deviating from the original topic, but I am a little confused about the genetics here, and I have not had any prior experience of breeding blacks. jdh, or anyone else, please could you clarify this situation?: At the moment I have a black female at my kennel for breeding with my sable male (showline, no black ancestors). The black female was a product of a mating between a sable female and an black/red male, both from showlines with, as far as I am aware, no black individuals in their ancestry - yet if black is recessive both her parents must have carried the black allele? I am sure she is not bicolor, there is no sign of any brown on her. OK, this female was first bred to another showline sable male (again no known black ancestors) and all the puppies were solid black. The owner of the female is looking to breed good blacks and dark sables that are also good in conformation. He says these two colours are the only possible outcomes from this breeding with my male - is this correct?

by SchHBabe on 05 May 2009 - 09:05
Black color in GSDs is a recessive gene. Black GSDs are produced only when either both the parents are black or both parents carry the black recessive gene. Breeding to black GSD's will not improve pigment, per se, because the black dog will only contribute his/her recessive black gene to the equation. If you are looking to produce darker pigment, especially in the tan/red... then I think you will have better success breeding to a non-black well-pigmented dog.
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