What percentage? - Page 1

I know this varies from litter to litter, but what's the average percentage of working pups that don't turn out with the drives suitable for schutzhund. 

How many owners of the pups who will be involved in SchH and have a good club with the right foundation training is an equation into the question you asked.  Some pups can have their drive snuffed if it isn't directed and nourished from the get-go.

Good point, thanks

Okay then, assuming that the owners do get involved in schutzhund....

and assuming that the schutzhund owners do all the right things at exactly the right times...............

Not to overly encourage a genetic deterministic viewpoint, but shouldn't the parent's drives also be of consideration?  And whether or not they are prepotent for producing those drives (through both of their own parents)?

it seems that many dogs have a potential for drive, whether working lines or show lines. Its the owner's choice to bring it out or to keep it down isn't it?

i've been working my little coated showline bitch for a year, and she's really coming into it now. she is insane when she sees a sleeve. she is excited about obedience and keeps her head down when tracking.......at first i didn't think she would show enough drive, now i'm worried that i won't be able to handle all 57lbs of her.

Most  working line pups will have drives suitable to title to a schH1......But really, most dogs can manage to get a schH1 on their home field, with their own helper, working line, show line, other breeds. 

The genetics behind the dog will provide you with a starting point, from which you can nourish or diminish what is already there.  Granted, parents whose drives have been diminished from their initial value, due to training etc. can potentially produce better than what they reveal themselves outwardly, but not the sort of thing to count on, if that's important to you and you're not absolutely certain it's there.

My view is, there are roughly three parts to the total value of a working dog.  Genes, Environment, and a fit for Context.  If genetics are disregarded, then overall potential for work is undoubtedly diminished.  This is more an emphasis from the standing point of the end-user, than from the breeder's.

As far as the distribution of aptitude among littermates goes, it could somewhat be likened to a bell curve.  Consider each little circle a "unit", or pup.  I've often found that when breeding two unrelated lines, with parents of less homozygous genetics or linebreeding, in a litter of 8 or 10 pups, one or two are less fit, and one or two are exceptional.  But, it depends on the depth of consideration for the match, really.

This one illustrates a greater ratio of the best and worst of two prepotent parents, from separate bloodlines, with less stringent selection pressures.  Not as easily illustrated, is the larger degree of uniformity within the litter, at least in matters of outward phenotype.

This one is more ideally where a breeder would like to be producing in their litters, and a better discussed subject for a topic of its own,

Thanks for the replies everyone.  I guess I should have stated the question much more precisely.  I should have asked what percentage of pups turn out good (for SchH) assuming the parents are both good titled working dogs, also assuming that all pups were subjected to the same enviroment, and traning techniques, etc.  I know there are very succesful litters where most if not all pups have good drives, but we all see those medium to low drive pups for sale also.