Stock coat actually long coat? Genetics question. - Page 1

I am wondering if any of you have had this experience. I have bred my titled female stock coat three times to a different stock coat male. Each time, the majority of the litter are long coats. We are talking 8 of 11 puppies, 1 of 2 puppies with AI, and all 8 puppies from this last litter. 

What I am thinking is that this dog is actually homozygous for long coat, although she is expressing the dominant stock coat gene (somehow). She has really short hair, with no tufts anywhere. She has been bred to three separate stock coated males, and each time, I have the same results.

I know that you can have both parents being heterozygous for long coat (Ll x Ll, where L is stock coat and l is long coat), and produce LL dominant stock coats, Ll stock coats carrying the recessive long coat, or ll recessive long coats which give only the recessive long coat gene if bred.

I guess what I am asking is if any of you have seen this or witnessed it. I am going to test her for the long coat gene and see what comes back. The odds seem very high to have that many long coats from two stock coat dogs, when it should be 50/50, if both parents are recessive long coat carriers. Can the deck be so stacked?

As a final note, this female will not be bred further, as it is not my goal to produce long coats. Please no nasty comments; I am just interested if others have seen or experienced this, or if it is even possible. I will post on this thread once her genetics test comes back.

Yes, the "deck can be so stacked". A through review of simple genetics would be in order. The statistical average is just that, statistical. Whenever genes are involved, there is nothing in the genetic program that says only nbspthe statistical average is to be expected. It could happen you came out with one or none, or all pups in the litter could end up being LC. The allele responsible for LC is recessive and all that needs to happen is one such allele pair up with the same allele from the other dog in the mated pair. No need to test. She carries the LC gene. But if you want to spend money, here is one lab that will take your money to confirm what is already known.

http://www.vetgen.com/canine-coat-length.html

MJD80nbsp

I work and will continue to work more than you will ever work. You are a looser and you know it and so do we. By the way, most people here know, or know how to find out my name. Care to tell yours? Or should we? You are a coward, but then we knew that too. Go crawl back into your cave or contribute something positive to the forum....oh, I forgot, you don't know squat so cannot contribute anything worthwhile.

Love, if you need more explanation, PM or email me and I can provide some additional examples. No sense posting here since the thread will just end up hijacked by this troll.

Interesting - no expert here, but if your female is as you describe and very obviously NOT long-coat (no extras, not too thick, etc) then though she obviously carries long-coat recessive, all three stud dogs must have also carried long-coat recessive, and yes IMO the odds just happened to stack against you in these three litters.  Maybe another litter would produce no long-coats - the only way to tell I suppose if she is "homozygous" for long-coat would be to breed her to a stud that is known to NOT carry long-coat recessive and see if she produces any in that litter.

molly

     I don't pay attention to statistics when it comes to Breeding Shepherds. If you are going to plan on a litter, XPECT the UNexpected. You can breed two short coat dogs, and get long coats.You can breed two long coat dogs, and get short coats.

     I don't care what breeders, genetics or statistics tell you, Expect and PLAN for the unexpected. If you want only short coats,YOU HAD BETTER DO A WHOLE LOT OF RESEARCH, and keep your fingers crossed. If there is no plan for what to do with unexpected, unplanned coats or colors, DON'T BREED THEM.

     Through-out  ALL lines, ALL German Shepherds carry the Desired traits,,AS WELL AS THE UNDESIRED. Some will, MOST WON'T admit to the UNDESIRABLES. Who knows what happens to them poor pups and where they go, when the don't suit the breeder.

    IF YOU CAN'T KEEP EM, DON'T BREED EM!!!!!                                                                                                 joni

This statement is inaccurate: "If you want only short coats,YOU HAD BETTER DO A WHOLE LOT OF RESEARCH, and keep your fingers crossed." One need not keep fingers crossed because there IS a genetic test to find out if a given dog carries the allele responsible for long coats. So if one wants to be certain they do not get a long coat, potential sire and dam can be tested and if neither tests positive for the allele for LC, then barring an incredibly small chance of a spontaneous mutation, it is not going to happen.nbsp

Further, it is simply not true that all GSDs carry the "desired traits" as well as the "undesired traits". If the genes are not there, then they are not there. No two GSDs, or organisms, short of being cloned, is an exact copy of any other like organism.

I have seen this sort of problem before as well. I had a nice koer 1 stock coat bitch (yasko granddaughter and bred her twice to 2 differnt males (1 was ulk von arlett great grandson, other was kevin v murrtal grandson.) both times, all but 1 or 2 pups came out coated. I did a genetics test and though she was stock coat, she actually carried 2 recessive long coat genes.

danagable, THIS is the information I was looking for! Thank you! I am testing this female as well. I think the results will be the same as yours.

Hodie, I have done much genetic research, although it has been online, since I am not a geneticist.

I have been around a while, and have never seen this before. I have spoken with a geneticist who specializes in human genetics, who did tell me that is is possible, but I was wondering if anyone had seen it before in the GSD. Now, thanks to danagable, I have my answer.

Kitkat3478, I never said I didn't have homes for them. I said long coats are not something I want to perpetuate, thus I won't breed her any longer. Your remarks on this thread regarding genes ("desired traits") are not accurate, as has been pointed out. I am not trying to be mean, but informative when I say that you might want to do a bit of research if you are a breeder.

Love,

Believe me, I have only bred three litters in my life, but I know that often it does not turn out as one would hope.

Whether your female has a single LC allele or double matters not. She has one, at least and mated with a male who also has one, at least, will potentially give you long coats.. nbspANY male she is bred to who has a LC allele is then creating a risk to produce a LC in the litter. The only way to avoid this is to test the MALEs.nbsp

I would also suggest to you that, depending on the female you own, if she has other outstanding attributes, that this testing of the male is the way to go rather than to eliminate her from the gene pool. The question is, what else does she contribute to the equation that is positive? Should every dog be bred? No, but neither do we want to eliminate dogs who belong in the gene pool when there are tests that can assure us that some minor undesirable trait or characteristic can be avoided.

Good luck.

by LoveTheVADogs,  I WAS NOT insinuating that YOU did not have homes for the pups you bred. My statement was intended for those in GENERAL that were under the impression that ;JUST BECAUSE you go out and get two beautiful short coat German Shepherds, male and female, excellent pedigrees, with the intent to breed them, that DOES NOT mean you will produce a litter full of beautiful short coat puppies.

     And Hodie, I do beleive that if you are trying to ensure Guaranteed results in planning perfection( to which that goes,"to each his own"),RESEARCH is necessary.Do you not have to get a general idea as to what any given dog, line produces before you go getting pups tested, or do you look at parents of a dog without knowing what that dog carries, test it, nope...no good, test another, or have you looked into the line? I look into the lines. That's just me.

     Anyway, If I say tomatoe, you say tomato, that's just the way that is,