Question about Universal Sieger - Page 1

MVF, the minimum achievements the dog must complete are listed here: http://germanshepherddog.com/regulations/universal_sieger_regulations.htm but I do not think that is your question.
 
My only answer (and it's not a good one) is that the dog is selected from the field of equal or nearly equal competitors. But what makes this final determination; is it just that this particular dog impresses the judge moreso than any other dog? And, in what way does this dog stand out from the crowd? Conformation? Movement? Progeny? Courage? Points gathered under judges "known" to be tough? I would suspect all those things.

Perhaps someone can add more to this discussion. In my opinion the dog (or bitch) that receives the title of Universal Sieger (or Siegerin) is in all ways the best all-around example of the German Shepherd Dog. I too would like to see more on this topic. Good post!

Best Regards,
Bob-O

The point system that is spelled out on the USA web site is straightforward. The only way that "politics" can enter the equation if a "worthy" dog is graded unfairly. For example, if a dog that "should" make SG is rated a G, or a dog that "should" have passed at the Nationals was given a failing score in one phase. However, good luck trying to *prove* that! Last year only two "V" rated dogs from the Sieger Show made it to the Nationals, and unfortunately only 1 passed.... voila! Our Universal Siegerin... Ule v TeMar. Honestly, there's not really as much voodoo going on "behind the scenes" as some folks would imagine.

One point I failed to realize going into the Universal Sieger challenge was the US-bred bonus.
Example-  (I HOPE I get this right!)
Two dogs nominated. One V-A, one V in the USA Sieger show. Both dogs tie in points at the National SchH Championship. The V dog becomes Universal Sieger because it was born in the US, while the V-A dog was foreign-born?

SS

I spend more time in personal protection and generally follow the show-work events from the periphery. And I am sure there are many experts here who are capable of giving more details. But this is what was explained to me by someone about the Universal Sieger contest as done by the USA.

Step 1: The dog must have a working title (at least SchH1) and be breed surveyed with at least Kkl2 rating. And he must be owned by a resident of USA (the country) who is also a member in good standing with USA (the organization).

Step 2: The dog must be shown in both --- the USA Sieger show in the working class and the USA GSD National championships in the same year. This means that the dog must independently fulfill the criteria for admission into those two events.

Example--- 

Dog A has SchH1 & Kkl1 and is therefore eligible to show at the USA Sieger show BUT he must also acheive his SchH2 & SchH3 titles + score at least 270 points at the SchH3 level in at least one USA sanctioned trial + participate at a USA sanctioned Regional Championship -------- BEFORE he becomes eligible for admission into the USA GSD National Championship

Step3: The declaration of intent to compete for the Universal Sieger title must be done at the time of registration for the USA Sieger show.

Step 3: The points that the dog earns in BOTH the Sieger show and the GSD National Championship are totalled and the dog with the highest points is declared the winner.

For the USA Sieger show the points awarded are as follows:

If the dog goes VA1 (ie. gets the Sieger ) = 25 points
If the dog get the rating of VA = 20 points
If the dog gets the rating of V = 15 points
If the dog gets the rating of SG = 10 points

In addition if the dog is US bred then it gets 5 bonus points as it comes out of the Sieger Show. This means that if Dog A is a US bred dog that is awarded the V rating in the Sieger show he would get 15 points + 5 bonus points ---- which would put him equal to dog B that is an import that is awarded the VA title (not VA1) at the Sieger show.

For the USA GSD National Championships the points are awarded as follows:

If the dog wins the National Championship = 25 points
If the dog gets a total score in the range of 286 - 300 = rating of V = 20 points
If the dog gets a total score in the range of 270 - 285 = rating of SG = 15 points
If the dog gets a total score in the range of 240 - 269 = rating of G = 10 points


The scoring system employed has some interesting twists and turns. Example on the basis of the current rules it is theoritically possible for the following scenario:


Dog A gets rating of VA at the Sieger show but is a foreign bred import (Score at this point = 20)
Dog B gets rating of V at the Sieger show but is a US bred animal (Score at this point = 20)
Dog C gets rating of SG at the Sieger show but is a foreign bred import (Score at this point = 10)
Dog D gets rating of SG at the Sieger show but is a US bred animal (Score at this point = 15)

Dog A does not qualify for admission to the USA GSD National Championship but  dogs B, C & D do.

Dog B scores 100 - 77 - 80 = 257 = G = 10 points
Dog C scores 89 - 87 - 87 = 263 = G = 10 points
Dog D scores 86 - 87 - 90 = 263 = G = 10 points

Dog B final score = ( 20 Sieger show points + 10 Nationals points) = 30
Dog C final score = ( 10 Sieger show points + 10 Nationals points) = 20
Dog D final score = ( 15 Sieger show points + 10 Nationals points) = 25

Based on the rules --- the winner is B

Shelley, That is not accurate. The VA dog receives more points for VA than the V dog for V so, if they would both receive the same points at the national, it would be a tie. :-) (Unless my math is off, and Lord knows it often is!) The US-bred bonus is a valid incentive for US breeders. Frankly, and realistically, what are the odds that a foreign-born VA dog "would" actually be in the ACTIVE running for Universal Sieger? By "active," I mean actually entering and participating in trials. When was the last time ANY foreign-born VA dog was in a USA trial? Ever? :-) The VA dogs that have trialed in USA trials have all been US-born, haven't they? I am thinking of Teejay, Fabian. Actually, now that I think of it, Teejay may not have done a USA trial. I could be wrong, but I don't believe Gucci ever competed in a USA trial, although he was in at least one WDA trial. I also don't recall whether he was actually VA. Anyone know which dogs are going for Univwersal Sieger this year? Boy, I believe, is a Sch 1, now. A few of the declarants from last year are entered in the Sieger, notably Juneau. I hope Juneau goes for it again.

Contd. from earlier post ------

This brings out a salient feature of the Universal Sieger title ---- all Universal Siegers are not equal.
In the above scenario dogs C & D are far more consistent in their scoring on the working field. This is especially apparent if the above scenario involves two dogs who are both conformationally equal.

Example if in addition to dog B there was another dog E which is a V rated foreign import with the following:

Dog E gets rating of V at the Sieger show but is a foreign import (Score at this point = 15)

at the Nationals:
Dog E scores 90 - 81 -  92  =  263 = G = 10 points

Now you still have V-rated US Bred Dog B coming in with 30 points as compared with V-rated foreign import dog E coming in with 25 points.... but wait a minute but Dog E is far better in protection ---- Dog B barely passed protection with 80 points while DOG E gets an SG level score --- ( in terms of the ability to withstand stress & pressure which BTW is what is now universally felt to be the primary deficiency in showline GSD's)

Given that the Universal Sieger award is designed to identify promising breeding animals this scoring system's anomalies can put a totally different spin on what desirable.

Which is why despite the Universal Sieger claim on any dog it is important to look at the total scores across the board.


Just my lengthy 2 cents......
  ROB C SHANE

Re: Gucci,
Go to the woman who owned the dog, ( Lida Fleury.) and ask her! This is how the wrong information gets out there.
Dawn

I stand corrected, and now completely confused.
ADD/Dyslexic Shelley failed math 7 times, never passed algebra in 5 tries, got into UCD on a special admit with advice to avoid subjects heavy in science. LOL I even confused my general manager with a sales package I tried to create yesterday. By the time we were half through she couldn't subtract simple numbers anymore, just like every tutor I ever had in school.

My philosophy now- Do the very best you can and let the math-heads figure out the results!
SS