William Koehler training methods - Page 1

I am wondering what peoples thoughts are regarding the William Koehler training methods with GDS's??. Methods being too hard on the dog is my main interest here, as many critics have labelled Koehler's methods as too much old school. The positive methods of only treats and praise with my GSD boy work perfectly with no distractions around, but the positive reinforcement routines with high distractions are practically useless with our boy. Our boy being stranger and dog aggressive although harsh leash corrections are not what we really want to do and feeling guilty afterwards when such a correction was necessary, but it's the only thing with our boy in those circumstances that does and has worked well to keep him in control. 

Directed more at the people well experienced with obedience training the breed, have the Koehler methods been refined to lessen stress on the dog with the same results, or do the Koehler methods especially with a hard nosed GSD still apply??. 

The Koehler method is what I learned when I first started training dogs in the 80's, before I got into Schutzhund sport. A lot of people still use the Koehler method. Unfortunately Koehler didn't embrace the concept of praise very well, so dogs tended to be flat and robotic rather than joyful and animated. Weaker dogs didn't do well at all, doing exercises poorly out of avoidance to the corrections.

SS

i personally use marker training ( up until 14 months or so before putting a pinch on) because it makes the obd. much more flashy and makes the dog try and figure out what exactly i want from him in a stress free enviroment.

My opinion on the Koehler method is being a dog or what a dog is hasnt changed since then so how could the method not be successful if it worked on dogs back in the day.

Your boy looks old enough (correct me if im wrong) to have pinch collar corrections just as long as he has a clear understanding of what is asked of him.

Rexy, do you have a dog training club that you can go to for help? I have one of Koehler's books and I would NOT recommend anyone to to just try and apply those techniques without some guidance. Your best bet is to find some experienced dog trainers and get someone to work with you to deal with these issues. Positive reinforcement is absolutely a good tool, but may not be the right answer in all scenarios. I hope you can find someone nearby to work with you. -Yvette

Please also see dildei's Cds especially on the Mood and Concepts of correction. He has applied some trajectories to old school methods like Konrad etc

regards

READ THE BOOKS.

If you READ HIS BOOKS you will see that he does indeed praise.  Not the silly-willy goofy praise, but you can decide to praise however you and your dog like best.  The point is that the Koehler method is one of tremendous patience.  I've found no one besides myself who ever followed it completely.  For instance, the broad jump - he has you jumping over ONE board stood on end for ONE MONTH before progressing. So - people will tell you all kinds of false crap about Koehler, but if you read it for yourself you'll know better.

He is very careful to make sure the dog totally understands each portion of each exercise before any correction at all enters the picture.

Think about that.  Therefore I've found Koehler to be incredibly stress-free training for every dog I've used it on, AND using exclusively Koehler methods I trained hound breeds for AKC obedience and not only titled them but placed in the classes almost every time AND had very, very happy, wagging tail dogs. 

Again - he works slowly, but you will have an absolutely reliable dog who you will have corrected much, much less using his methods.

Now, I don't think it produces the clamped-to-your-leg heeling that Schutzhund wants.  It produces an accurate dog who always watches you, but Koehler by itself won't clamp the dog against your leg.

 

 

"Our boy being stranger and dog aggressive although harsh leash corrections are not what we really want to do and feeling guilty afterwards"

If you feel guilty about stopping your dog from biting a human being (think about THAT for minute), then Koehler is definitely not for you.

He does not tolerate (in Koehler-like words) spineless namby-pamby owners who would ineffectively tug on a leash saying, now, now, don't do that, as their 80-lb. dog takes a chunk out of an innocent human being or out of someone's harmless pet.

So what DO you want to do?  Stop the dog from biting people or not?  You want to stop him from being forceful w/o you being forceful?

Seriously, though, I'd recommend doing Koehler right or not doing it at all.  Look into Victoria Stillwell - she's that Englishwoman on Animal Planet.  She deals with aggression by doing a foundation of clicker training.  Honestly, if you do it right and TRAIN with it, not just hope to have your problem solved in a 30-minute tv show, I think you can have success this way.

"when such a correction was necessary, but it's the only thing with our boy in those circumstances that does and has worked well to keep him in control."

Interesting that it works but you don't want to do it.   Do you make sure that your praise and reward is then as big as your correction?  IME people forget that.  When the dog gives you the least bit of cooperation, praise and reward lavishly.

You need to get with a training club.  I saw your thread regarding the issues you are having with distractions.  It sounds to me like you really aren't clear on training and need some hands on help.  You won't learn how to do it over the internet.

William Koehler is hard to read but the basics still work as they always have.
It ain't Schutzhund.
You can inject other methods into his and make it even better.
Nothing wrong with positive reinforcement if the timing is correct.
Don't skimp on distractions.
Learn his mindset for training.
Don't whisper sweet nothings in your dogs ear and expect him to respect you for it.
Your not asking, you are commanding.

I have a lot of respect for Koehler's methods.

Here they are, right from the book:

Six more times the instructor chooses a handler and dog to walk between the two lines of dogs. Six more times we see the willing start, the dog's respect of the slack, and the prompt sit. Murmurs from the spectators tell you they share your approval of the performance.

 

The instructor nods toward the far end of the lines. "The brindle Boxer."

 

A man's voice asks, rather than commands, "Hans-heel?"

 

The dog that lunges out in front of the man resembles the first Boxer only in breed. In distracting situations where Mike had been attentive, Hans is heedless. Jerking his restraining, over-balanced handler with him, he jumps at each dog that comes into his wild-eyed focus. Action by the offended handlers of the other dogs prevents a dangerous and disagreeable "Donnybrook." Progress on the path between the lines is made possible only by the fact that the frustrated Hans seeks fresh opportunities in that direction. Hans is uninfluenced and even contemptuous of his master's puny restraining.

 

The instructor seems more concerned with studying the faces of the surrounding people than with the situation that threatens injury to one or more dogs. He appears unaware of a Great Dane's willingness to accept Hans's challenge. But when Hans is within one lunge of the rumbling Dane, the instructor raises his voice above the Boxer's air­-starved gasps and growls, "Stop and sit him."

 

All observers turn the resentment they felt toward Hans full on the man who made such an unreasonable request.

 

Futilely, Hans's suffering handler strives with the big Boxer. "Hans, sit-sit. Sit, boy-sit."

 

Hans, delayed by the man's panicky efforts, rears up and mouths at

his hands.

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