Drives, speed, and working ability

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by VonIsengard on 09 April 2009 - 15:04

I have to jet to work soon, but I wanted to get a discusion going, I'll check on it when I get home later.

I'd like to discuss speed, hyperactivity, nerves, and drive; how they all relate to each other.

I have often seen very fast, hyper dogs described as being awesome working dogs, but on closer inspection the nerves are rather shaky, and sometimes unstable. I have seen equally fast and energetic dogs who are very trustworthy and strong nerved as well. Novices seem to think the more hyper a puppy is, the more "drive" it has.

Because a puppy is not flipping itself and the end of the leash and squealing, yet chomps the rag hard as it can doesn't let go to save it's life, does this puppy have less drive because it is less animated?

Does a dog who cannot run down the field with the speed of a malinois, but still engages the helper with power, confidence, and full grips, have less working ability than a dog who can leave a divet in the grass running blinds?

If a dog is in a long down, rocks onto a hip and relaxes while it waits for you, is this less desirable than a dog who crouches down staring intently at you? What if they both get up with equal enthusiasm?

I ask these questions, because I would like to go further in sport with my next dog. But I just can't stand hyper dogs. They aren't for me, and they make me crazy. I would like some input on how a calmer, quieter dog could comparably perform.

by sueincc on 09 April 2009 - 15:04

Most high drive dogs do need to be worked, I guess some might call the need to work hyper, but this is not the same as a hectic dog or a dog with nerve issues.    Are there high drive dogs that are hectic and have nerve issues, of course. Is this a good thing? No. Do people who are new recognize the difference? Not until they are taught the difference.

I guess the ideal we are all are looking for whether it is a Malinois a Dutchie or a GSD is that dog that will run down the field full blast, (running not loping), and then engage the helper with power, intensity and full grips.

There are degrees on the scale.

by EKvonEarnhardt on 09 April 2009 - 15:04

I love a good working dog as much as the next person. BUT the reason I am with the shepherds are all the reasons you have pointed out - which you like. Malis are malis and they are for people that like the hyper non stop "ever-ready bunny" too many people are trying to make the GSD more and more like MAlis - they are not.

I just talked with a friend recently and we were talking about too many people want hyper and speed cause they saw this MAli/KNVP dog or that video, but never owned nothing more then a pet dog. This is were many people get in trouble and the only one that pays the price is the dog.

You have to decide for your self (honestly) what makes you happy not what I or any one else likes. You have to live with the dog, work the dog not us.

EK

by Mystere on 09 April 2009 - 16:04

I agree with Sue and EK. The Mals do have that "full blast " drive, but a lot of that has to do with the nerve "structure" (for want of a better word). I would NOT want a gsd with the type of nerves typical and expected in a Malinois. To me, that would be a very nervy gsd on the verge of cracking.

But, it is fine...for a Mal.

You can find gsds with very good, solid nerves who leave a divet in the grass on the take off for the courage test, or even the dumbbell retrieve, yet engage with intensity and power and full, hard grips.

Rock solid nerves and excellent working ability are not mutually exclusive. I know that there are, and have been, top competitors who believe that the dog must be a just a little tad nervy to perform well in the bitework. I think that is simply "old school" thinking.

JMHO

by SchHBabe on 09 April 2009 - 18:04

Poor nerves are poor nerves. This is nothing to do with drives. However, a high drive, high energy dog must receive an outlet for his drives or else will likely display neurotic behavior just out of frustration. High drive, high energy working dogs are NOT for everyone, and I expect there have been many disappointed and frustrated puppy buyers who signed up for "too much dog" and now decry the workinglines as "gangster dogs". Pfui!

by SchHBabe on 09 April 2009 - 18:04

I continue to giggle while people tag the Malinois as a nervy, hectic breed. I am glad this negative stereotype is applied with a broad brush - it will keep away the pet owners who are tempted to dabble in working breeds, and who are unfit for such a high drive animal. However, I feel conflicted, because as much as I see the benefits of this falsehood, it pains me to see how GSD breeders have come to assume that the GSD is just not "designed" to be able to perform on the athletic and agile level of the Malinois. (sigh) Open up Captain Max's book and you will see many historical photographs of ancestral GSD's scaling 10 foot vertical walls and leaping like gazelles. Pity that we have lowered the bar so much for the GSD (no pun intended).

by sueincc on 09 April 2009 - 18:04

I agree with you 100% SchHBabe, about both the GSD and the Mali. I also can understand why Mali people might be A-OK with outsiders still believing their breed is all fruit loops and nut jobs. Popularity really sucks when it comes to dog breeds.

by snajper69 on 09 April 2009 - 21:04

I think Malis and GSD's have a lot in common, is just I think the mali is the more riged healthier version of GSD, closer to what GSD used to be, when the breed came around. Now more ofthen than not GSD is nothing more than nice ornament ;).

by sueincc on 09 April 2009 - 21:04

I think the reason people think that about Malis is because not too long ago there were a lot of Malis that were hectic and displayed nerve issues and there are still Malis like that out there, but there are also many rock solid Malis being bred and they aren't hard to find.

by VonIsengard on 09 April 2009 - 23:04

Interesting replies, many of them line with what I was thinking. I used mals only as an example because they are known for being fast.

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