Showlines, Working Lines - The ability to work - Page 1

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by Mackenzie on 09 April 2009 - 09:04

How often do we hear the argument from the showline people that working dogs do not meet the breed standard and, vice versa, the working people saying the showline dogs are poor workers? Every day!!!

Every year thousand of puppies are born into one side or the other, but what happens to them? Mostly, the majority of pups find their way to pet owners. Why? Because not every pup that is born, from whichever side, will fulfil the dream - Champion. I believe that the showline breeders produce the most pups each year and this is probably because they keep more dogs and it is more about profit. I also believe that most working enthusiast keep few dogs. Why? Because this side of our breed is more time consuming per dog.

When we look at the pups that are retained by either side their progress is governed by time, they have to be allowed to physically develop, before either side can say yea or nay as to whether they should be retained or sold on. For those that make the first cut the next major problem is “will the hips be excellent, just acceptable, or, no good at all for work/breeding“, regardless of which side they are on. We now come to the big divide.

Now, from all the pups born, we come to the very few that will go on and have to achieve at least Sch H 1 working qualification and future working qualifications if they are good enough. This is where the trainers come in and the real argument begins. Some show dogs are trained by their owners, usually people with very few dogs. The bigger and more affluent owner/breeder farms them out to trainers who make a living from this element of the dogs. These trainers take on many dogs each year in order to get the minimum qualification to permit breeding and then the animal is handed back to the owner and rarely worked on a regular basis. The working enthusiast will usually train their own dogs and because of competition keep the same dog in for some time, quite often for years.

I believe that there are some good dogs from the show side that will make just as good working dogs as those from working lines. It is the trainers who make the real difference and not which side of the blanket does the dog come from. Why? Because the show trainers do just enough to satisfy the rules, not many compete regularly after qualifying, whereas, the working trainer builds closer bonds with their dogs due to the dog staying in training for a much longer period of time in order to compete and work. The working trainer has to hone the dogs natural ability to high levels just to compete at even the easiest of tests. This takes time and skill. It is performance related. In the real world where dogs work in SAR, Protection, Police and Customs, Drug detection, dogs for the blind etc the dog is with the owner/trainer every day of it’s working life and even retirement.

Who knows, the day may come where show people and breeders will take on the working side at their own game. The biggest dream is that good working trainers will take on a dog bred for show and take it all the way. I believe it is possible, especially if we unite the two sides for the good of the German Shepherd. As an example let us look at Dux v Jabora, now standing at stud in Spain, a dog bred with show bloodlines. Look at him and his working qualifications on Database (he is not as red as the photo shows). I have personal experience of this dog and he is a confident animal with an excellent character and, clearly, the ability to work. His show career was successful making V8 at the Sieger Show and VA1 at the Danish Sieger show. He is the type of dog that any sensible breeder/working enthusiast would like to breed/own. He cannot be the only one out there that can achieve good working results.

To both sides, open your minds and try more.

Mackenzie


missbeeb

by missbeeb on 09 April 2009 - 10:04


Mackenzie... I totally agree!  I have worked showlines in Ob (B) & WT... up to WDEx.  It is VERY often down to training.  I enjoyed competing, but many of the show guys don't, so any Sch qualification is simply a means to an end... because they have to have it.  When you see some of the S/L dogs (In video clips) working, it's clear that they are nowhere near as good as the W/L guys... but how much of that is down to training?

I hope to get another Shepherd in a year or so (mine are old) and I will look seriously at Sch, (though bitework has never held any appeal) because I said I would and I hope it's more interesting than it seems to me, at present.  I will have a S/L animal, because I will also want to show it... as I did with mine before!  For me, it has to be the total dog.


by Mackenzie on 09 April 2009 - 10:04

Well done missbeeb, you have the right attitude to take our breed forward.   Most of the show people's training is limited to running around in a circle.  When Schutzhund came to Britain many top breeders tried for about five minutes, realised they could not train and disappeared from the scene.

Kind regards

Mackenzie

by Nancy on 09 April 2009 - 11:04

Often of the working dogs in LE, SAR etc. do not go to their handler until grown and have had only basic training and no real bonding up until that point.  Not typically coddled as puppies with intense bond, but a good dog will make the transition with no ill effects.

I cannot speak to dogsport but I do know most people actually working dogs expect a quick learn and turnaround and the dog has to naturally be able to manage all of those things or they simply don't make the cut. 

For example, if I have a dog that is going to get weird about gunshot, I am not going to waste a lot of  time desensitzing them, because that is a sign that I am going to have to desensitize them to "other" things. Same thing with slick floors and open metal stairs.  Issues there are signs of nerve issues. You *can* get the dog ready for schutzhund with these kind of issues because the challenges are predictable and you can desensitize for them, but not so much for the real world.

by Mackenzie on 09 April 2009 - 11:04

Hello Nancy

Many thanks for your input which is very much appreciated and I hope that you will continue to do so.  I am aware that many full time working dogs go to their trainers as grown animals (say nine months upwards) but I am trying to write this post omitting things (which experienced people will pick up on) because I want to stimulate contributions from less knowledgeable people as well.  It would be interesting if you could give some of your experience of training for those with less knowledge.  As experienced trainers we can pick up on the the dog soon enough to make the necessary decision that it is not going to make it.  It is expensive to train dogs for full time work and, therefore, it makes economic sense to quickly drop the ones that will not make it.  The sport enthusiast would probably persevere longer and achieve a certain level of success.

If you have had success with dogs from showline bloodlines then please let us know.

Kind regards

Mackenzie


by kegelbrecher on 09 April 2009 - 12:04

Very nice and well balanced analysis, Mackenzie....

There are more and more folks who are doing what you spoke of.


Rob C Shane.

SchHBabe

by SchHBabe on 09 April 2009 - 13:04

"The biggest dream is that good working trainers will take on a dog bred for show and take it all the way." Are you saying that's YOUR PERSONAL dream, or a dream that EVERYONE should aspire to? If that's what you want to do, then go for it. But "good working trainers" like "good working dogs" for a reason. One of the few exceptions is Ivan and it is to his credit that he was the only handler at the WUSV Tournament with a showline dog. Hmmmmm... might be a reason for that, eh? Nevertheless, since we've already got one "good working trainer" campaigning with a show dog, let's see just one "good show kennel" put up a sable in the Sieger Show!

ShelleyR

by ShelleyR on 09 April 2009 - 14:04

IMO almost any show dog in this country has a lot more drive for the work than its owner. Thank God most of them make good house pets.

Its beautiful out today, rain tomorrow and Saturday. the grass is greening up on the tracking field and that jump and scaling wall down on our field is beckoning loudly. Forget work this afternoon. I'm out to work with my dogs!

SS

sueincc

by sueincc on 09 April 2009 - 14:04

I have seen many people who when they begin in schH they have their first GSD puppy.  Many  first timers show up with a WG show line puppy.  While they try very hard and love their dogs very much, and listen to the training director and do everything they are supposed to do to develop the puppy, by the time their pup is a young dog, they  see the difference between the average working line and the average show line dog.  If they have become addicted to the sport they usually then buy a working line puppy or young prospect.  Of course they keep their first dog, he becomes the house dog and is very much treasured, but they want to work with a dog who has drives for the work, it's just so much easier. 



ShelleyR

by ShelleyR on 09 April 2009 - 14:04

Would that more people did that... IMExp they come out a couple of times, find out how much time and work it is, and disappear forever.





 


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