Why Hips & Elbows Every Generation? - Page 1

What really changes from generation to generation?
Do Hips & Elbows go down hill that fast?
I know that some people just x-ray Hips every time.
Some include both Hips & Elbows,

What if someone had a dog so intelligent, that he could out do all others in the way he comunicated with us humans,
what if that was the only thing that was highlighted in a breeding program?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2BfzUIBy9A

Somebody else is going to have to address this one. I just CAN'T this time. You understand...
We suggest books, we send them to clubs, we give 'em advice, and what?
They eat the covers off the books and breed whatever they have to whatever they can get to just the same.
I give up for now. Time to go out and work the retrieve with Bijou.

SS

Shelley:  "Somebody else is going to have to address this one. I just CAN'T this time. You understand..."

I understand, me neither.......


What the heck does skidboot have to do with ethical breeding practices which include having hips and elbows certified normal?

Here is what I don't get, Mirasmom.  On your website you proudly post the OFA passing Elbow and Hip Certs for all your dogs that have them.  Even on your dogs that only have passing elbows, like your brood bitch Sam, you post the results.   But when it comes to her hips, you simply nullify the results by saying your vet knows better than OFA?  I notice she also has a daughter in the OFA database with the curious combination of NORMAL elbows and no hip score.

You can't have it both ways.  If you think OFA's results are not accurate, fine, but it's kind of weird to  brag about good OFA results one minute, or use them as a selling point, but  then discount them the next when the results are not what you wanted to see.  You say you trust your vet more than OFA, well personally I think that's a load of crap, but if that's your feeling,  stick with it the whole way, not just when it suites you.

I can't believe anyone who has been breeding multiple generations of GSD and Labs would pose this question, must less bring SkidBoot into the equation. So lets see, SkidBoot was really smart so dogs don't need hips anymore. This is really too much to stomach. 

Good idea Shelley.  I'm heading out to work on BRING BRING BRING too!

As I wrote on the SV going back to the four family system of breeding......."I would like to suggest that if one watches the litters that get posted here, more than a few come from puppy mills and people who know nothing, but still bred their GSD. Almost daily when looking at the new litters posted for sale, if one follows the links, you find people breeding GSDs who are poor specimens of the breed, have no health checks, and certainly are being bred by people who are ignorant of the most basic elements concerning proper temperament and structure, let alone health. The difference between a puppy mill posted just in the last day and what is posted here daily is thankfully only that there might not be 200 puppies in one place at a time, in most instances. The dream to fix the problems within any breed is probably only that unless the situation can be controlled. And because so many people breed, this is unlikely. Control is not necessarily a bad thing when done properly."

As for your vet being a certifiable and trustworthy source for a hip or elbow......no one else thinks so except for you. Sort of reminds me of the person in TX, a legend in her own mind, who was involved in the mess about one dog she would not send back to the owner. This person also suggested her vet could say her dogs had good hips. But, of course, in that instance, the person did not even know what OFA was and was busy breeding away. 

The logic of mirasmom is lacking, but we have seen this before. And it sadly also comes down to a lack of understanding that none of us will ever get into the heads of people like this. Sort of like the discussion about the e-collar for the dog who is other dog aggressive and at the fence fighting etc. They are using the tool in all the wrong ways, and when they finally turn it up to the last stimulation level and they still cannot get the dog off the other dog, the other animal or God forbid, a person, then what will they do? It is useless to give advice here to all too many of these people. Again, it comes down to money, money, money. 

Results speak for themselves.
We do not suppose that all progeny of a titled dog have the same working ability as the parents, nor do we simply take for granted that EVERY pup of a Sieger is destined for greatness.
We engage in rigorous performance testing, hip and elbow screening, breed survey, etc. in order to PRESERVE the gains that we have made as well as in hopes of making FURTHER gains.
The HDZuchtwert program i in my opinion the best guide so far developed, but even animals kn own for producing good hips and elbows will throw a bad one from time to time.
Some of this is due to the variable heritability of characteristics, some to environment, and some to the complexity of the genetic basis for polygenic traits.
Even if you do not understand the exact aetiology of a trait it behooves you as a breeder to use whatever means are at your disposal  to ensure that you are not contributing to the problem. JDH

All right, I guess most of you are telling me that OFA IS the tell all, and they are never wrong,
I should only trust their 3 experienced vets and not any of my own 3 that I see.

And the point I was getting across, is that I personally think Skidboot had a different sort of high intelligence
that doesn't come along everyday, within any breed, and should you see that comunication in a GSD, that
would be a good reason to breed him, that is if he doesn't have any MAJOR, SEVERE, notably crippling genetic defects.


Here's Sam's note from my vet Dr. Candee. that now has been in practice for over 35 years,

www.amesburyah.com/

 

 So WHY EVERY GENERATION?? ....  maybe better question WHY NOT EVERY GENERATION?!!

I doubt that anyone is suggesting that OFA certification (Pen-hip/OVC etc) is the only thing that should be taken into consideration when breeding a dog.  But that it is ONE of the required issues that need to be looked at.  The % of GSD's with Dysplasia does decrease when all dogs in the pedigree are X-rayed. Why certify?  Because I can't be sure that  John Doe's Vet in Timbuctu knows what correct German Shepherd hips should look like... so if I were to purchase a dog from  his non-certified dog there's no way to be certain of the hips... and  in the next generation that dog will show on all pedigree bases as a blank... like perhaps it was not x-rayed or was dysplastic.

   Same may be said of other traits such as ears that won't stand, lack of pigment, intellengence, Working degrees, conformation rateings and anything else people can think of.  Each person has their own hard limit of what they'll accept and overlook.  

(I was bored with tv, so figured I'd do the answer this round of Newbie 101)

I'm a disinterested bystander in this topic because I am not a breeder and I will never become a breeder.

But I "reads a bit, that I do, by god." - and population genetics and diseases in populations with closed and ever narrowing gene pools is a fascinating topic.

But as Daniel Patrick Moynihan has been quoted as saying: "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

Because I have not made a detailed study of this topic I will make no claim about the efficacy of hip screens (I have my suspicions). 

BUT I do  know that no one on this thread has provided evidence for their ASSUMPTION that screening successfully leads to  it's intended result of........(fill in blank).

A question is posed: "Why hips & elbows every generation?"

Those who ASSERT that the answer is obvious BEAR THE BURDEN of providing evidence to support their claim.
Evidence is NOT the same as hearsay & not the same as faith & not the same as dogma (pun intended).

Evidence goes something like this (think of your own variations as well):
A double blind, controlled experiment comparing 50 litters of a test group and 50 litters of a control group is conducted.
All dogs of the both groups are randomly selected from the same gene pool
In the test group - only dogs that are OFA'd with excellent or good hips are bred together.
In the control group - individuals are bred together without knowledge of and irregardless of OFA rating.
No one evaluating the offspring know which come from which group. (very important - hence "blind").
Litters are allowed to grow until 4 or 5 At 2 all pups are xrayed & evaluated . At 3, 4 & 5 they are xrayed and evaluated again.
Numbers are gathered and there shows a significantly lower or significantly higher or an insignificant difference in the incidence of (or severity of) dysplasia, etc... in the control group puppies vs the test group puppies.
The methodology used to analyze the numbers is transparent and available for statistitians to evaluate and refute.
Over a period of time - no serious refutations are made and more and more similar experiments yield the same results.

Start quoting these studies or other evidence (which must bear scrutiny- it's inner workings must be "bared").

Everyone can't be a scientist conducting these types of experiments
BUT NO ONE IS EXEMPT from the responsibility of quoting EVIDENCE when making assertions
....especially when the assertions sarcastically and sanctimoniously denigrate others.

After all you don't have to make assertions. But if you do - back 'em up with evidence.

I should think that veterinarians, technicians and other profiteers at OFA and PennHip would get cracking. They are the ones raking in the cash due to the notion that SCREENING dogs and not breeding those that fail will lead to significanlty lower incidence and/or severity of said problem. You'd think they'd want to prove the value of their product.

Thanks windwalker18,

I've just about had it with my own stupid questions too
 
My pups go out the door on a limited reg. and if people want to breed, they are to get hips & elbows pre-limbed
or certified by ofa or penn-hip, also their dog must have a temperament test, then I will give them full reg.

Think I'll go back to the TV