E-Collar harmful?? - Page 1

My  friend has a big male GSD/Husky mix that is very dog aggressive through a fence/kennel etc. She uses an e-collar on him when he is in the yard. She went to a trainer for basic through advanced obedience with him (I don't know the trainer personally but seemed decent from what she has told me and the dog does have good obedience when they are working) and he suggested this. She uses the E-collar when he rushes the fence and goes after the neighbor's dogs. He has gotten a hold of a couple of dogs- nothing too severe but did give one stitches. She changed the fence from bars to solid so he can't reach through anymore. Anyway, it sounds like she has to shock  him at a pretty high number to get him to stop attacking the fence. (Don't know exact #s but I do know she has a Dogtra that goes up past 100). He is a hard dog with very high prey drive. (I think he'd be fun to work, he needs a job) And one time a poor cat made the wrong choice and went through his yard while he was out-- she shocked him almost to the highest number before he let it go. She also grabbed his collar and was telling him out etc but he wouldn't let the cat go until she shocked him multiple times. I have never used an e-collar except for minimally in training, but never like this so I know very little about them. The question is- he has developed alot of scabs/sores (big ones) around his neck where the e-collar sits. She does not leave it on him overnight or when he is in the house and she is at work or gone. She puts in on when he goes outside and she only puts him out or walks him (he sometimes goes after dogs on walks too) and only when she can supervise. So I don't think it is from rubbing. Could shocking him at the high numbers be hurting him and causing the sores? I didn't think e-collars could do this but I felt the scabs tonight and she told me it happened one other time too. Personally i think the dog is too much for her but besides the dog aggression they do well together. She works him on his obedience every evening and plays with him and takes him for walks, but she just puts him in the yard before work and before bed by himself to "do his business." (with the e-collar on in case the neighbor's dogs are out) I advised her to stop putting it on him until she found out if that was causing the sores and just to take him out on-leash and try to avoid those situations until something else can be figured out. Any suggestions?

Yes, e collars will leave sores on the neck absolutely. It is too thick metal wires charged with electricity. You leave it long enough and use a high enough setting buzzing forever, yes,it willabsolutely leave the marks.

I cannot speculate what is going on, again, just internet board bullshit to say "do this or do that", but it seems the dog is too much for her.

If it was me and my dog and he had that cat not outing and behaving like that with other dogs there is only 1 thing I could do: choking tillthe dog almost passes out aka "almost meet your maker". Not everyone is cut out to do that or is willing to do that.

The problem will (sadly) probably remain. Some hard headed dogs and he certainly seems to be the type, absolutely do develop a high tolerance for e collar shocks, the more and longer you jack it up, the tougher and more resistant he gets.

No clear answer to the problem here anyway, sorry, maybe others can offer better help.

So would you suggest she stop using the e-collar? If it was leaving those sores on my dog I just couldn't keep using it! Without the e-collar I don't know that she could control him when he decided to go after another dog, even just on her fenceline though. He avoids being caught when he rushes the fence off leash. She has worked him in obedience along the fenceline when they are out but in that case he knows he has the pinch on and he focuses on the obedience (mostly). I know she feels bad but just doesn't know what else to do and I don't know what to suggest..

I really do not know what to suggest beyond what I already typed, sorry. Too much dog for her.

many times beginners will put the reciever on too loose.  this causes a hot spot from movement, not from elec stimulation.  with the dogtra, i see this on dogs that are routinely worked below a 10.   i don't like seeing the collar used for correction.  under the right circumstances it can be a very useful tool.  hard to say what is going on from your interperitation.  maybe others can offer different insight.

The dog may not understand that the correction is coming from her, which is why he gets riled up to that point.  Is this the sole reason she bought the ecollar?  Perhaps she needs to hire a trainer who can work with these aggression issues one on one, instead of in a class, and show her how to use the ecollar properly.   We've just started using a Dogtra ecollar (goes up to 120-something) to prevent escalation of fear aggression in our Shepherd, and have also been using it to clean up her obedience.  We start out at a low setting of 25, and increase it by increments of 5 until she jerks her head around to look for what nicked her.  The highest we've had to go is 45, and that was only when she was really worked up.  We turned it down when she calmed down.  But we give her a "Leave it" command first, to give her an opportunity to stop what she's doing, followed by a "NO" and a nick.  It's been working great so far.  We fasten it securely, high on her neck, with the prongs on the back of her neck where the coat is less shaggy and gets better contact with the skin.  We've also all tried it out on ourselves, to see what it feels like, and at the low settings it just feels like someone walked across a carpet in socks and touched your arm.  A quick snap of static electricity is all.

But she needs to consult someone who can work with her in her backyard and help her and the dog overcome this behavior.

Too much dog needs to be looked at seriously, before the dog or another dog, or a person is hurt by this dog. Its not about the ecollar, or else you have have a suggestion as an alternative for the person to utilize. SOMETIMES, a dog and owner don't fit together, so that a harmonious relationship, without exttreme circumstances, can exit!!

In my opinion she is waiting too long to zap the dog - once he has gone into full drive, in the case of some hard dogs, using any amount of power may not have the desired effect, even if the dog vocalizes, because he may not be able to put two and two together as the instances are far apart and he does not know where the correction is coming from. The trick is to catch the dog at the first sign of it showing interest and alerting and use the collar to give a mild correction and a "verbal" (like 'don't look') to stop him well before he goes into full drive. A long leash would help too instead of trying to train only with an e-collar with the dog being left free. With enough repetitions and persistence, it should be possible to get him out of the habit. If necessary set up instances to help speed up learning.

But like with ALL training, timing is the key.

 In my opinion..too much of a dog for her...

She needs to get help and fast before this dog become a liability for her..

You can't just shock a dog and think everything will become normal..when using a e-collar you REALLY need TIMING or the dog will become stonger and stronger until it has no effect anymore..it seems this is the case now..

Not everybody should use the e-collar because it is a very effective tool and sometimes a last resort..now what do we have left to make an impression on him??

She should get another trainer and very soon...

Shezam1's comments on timing are correct.

Note, though, that e-collars are contra-indicated for dog aggression.  Dogtra's literature itself points out that often use of an e-collar to treat dog aggression has the opposite effect: it heightens the aggression.  Especially in cases of mis-placed timing, the dog has been taught that sight of another dog or animal or whatever means I'm going to get shocked, HARD.  This results in the dog associating the other dog, even at a distance, with pain and escalates the aggression your friend is trying to stop.

If this dog has neck injuries, something is seriously wrong and IMHO I think your friend needs to step back. 

Now I'm going to recommend something that I admit I've mocked for many years, only to try it with a "non-adoptable" dog and have it work: clicker training.  I never dreamed it could possibly work with a dog aggressive dog but it did.  Totally stopped fence-running, too.  The object is to have the dog mark to the sound for a reward.  The dog-aggressive rescue dog I have now, when he sees a dog through the fence or across the street, immediately thinks REWARD! and looks to me for a treat.  (Obviously I used good treats - LOL:  beef heart cut up into small pieces, although at first I used BIG HUNKS of it to get his notice since being aggressive was more interesting to him).

Now he thinks "other dog means great food's comin'!"

He is not yet non-reactive out in the wide world, but "through a fence/kennel" he's great.