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by macawpower58 on 20 March 2009 - 02:03
I have a friend with a workingline, 3 1/2 year old Czech male.
His dog started to lose weight, and because I have an EPI dog, that was one of our first thoughts.
The dog's poop was in the beginning very loose, almost water, reminescant of an EPI dog's stool, and weight dropped steadily. He had tests run, and his TLI test was borderline EPI, also showing a possible pancreatic infection. No word on whether SIBO or IBD is present (if they even tested for them).
He was put on antibiotics and enzymes.
His poop has firmed up well, but his weight is still steadily dropping. This is a very, very high drive dog, his energy level is off the chart. He has recently started to show the weakness and stress of the large weight loss. Ribs are easily evident, hip bones starting to show through. His energy level is flagging, and for this dog, that is unheard of. I believe he is showing muscle loss too.
The owner is frustrated and angry over the multitudes of tests run, with no improvement in his dog. Has anyone ever heard of a borderline EPI case, with decent stool, yet steadily dropping weight?
The dog is using 1 tsp enzymes to 1 cup food. He is on now eating about 7 cups of food a day, and looking like a bag of bones.
Any suggestions of what else could be the problem? Or would you think just a case of EPI, that is not responding to the amount of enzymes?
Thanks for any help offered.
His dog started to lose weight, and because I have an EPI dog, that was one of our first thoughts.
The dog's poop was in the beginning very loose, almost water, reminescant of an EPI dog's stool, and weight dropped steadily. He had tests run, and his TLI test was borderline EPI, also showing a possible pancreatic infection. No word on whether SIBO or IBD is present (if they even tested for them).
He was put on antibiotics and enzymes.
His poop has firmed up well, but his weight is still steadily dropping. This is a very, very high drive dog, his energy level is off the chart. He has recently started to show the weakness and stress of the large weight loss. Ribs are easily evident, hip bones starting to show through. His energy level is flagging, and for this dog, that is unheard of. I believe he is showing muscle loss too.
The owner is frustrated and angry over the multitudes of tests run, with no improvement in his dog. Has anyone ever heard of a borderline EPI case, with decent stool, yet steadily dropping weight?
The dog is using 1 tsp enzymes to 1 cup food. He is on now eating about 7 cups of food a day, and looking like a bag of bones.
Any suggestions of what else could be the problem? Or would you think just a case of EPI, that is not responding to the amount of enzymes?
Thanks for any help offered.
by RLHAR on 20 March 2009 - 02:03
What is he being fed 7 cups of?
I ask because I have a high drive, very active Czech female and when I switched her to a grain free diet with a raw suppliment and (better food and all that) she dropped weight and looked like a gray hound. Her stools were all right but her ribs, spine, hips all showed. I had to reintroduce 'empty carbs' in the form of puppy food to her diet to bring her back up and even with that mix I've had to add in sweet potato based 'cookies' to try to bring her weight up just a little bit more.
I ask because I have a high drive, very active Czech female and when I switched her to a grain free diet with a raw suppliment and (better food and all that) she dropped weight and looked like a gray hound. Her stools were all right but her ribs, spine, hips all showed. I had to reintroduce 'empty carbs' in the form of puppy food to her diet to bring her back up and even with that mix I've had to add in sweet potato based 'cookies' to try to bring her weight up just a little bit more.
by ziegenfarm on 20 March 2009 - 02:03
check everything. check for worms. check the thyroid. tell the vet not to stop until it is figured out. what kind of food is he eating? is he kenneled? crated? did the sire or dam experience similar? there has to be an answer to this. it may just take some time. best wishes to the owner and dog.
pjp
by macawpower58 on 20 March 2009 - 03:03
I'll let him know about your dog needing the carbs.
I can't remember the brand of food, I do know it's quality, if may even be grain free.
I do know they checked, and rechecked for parasites, he was found clean. Not sure about the thyroid, I'll find out.
He's had this dog for over a year and a half. The dog didn't have this problem when he first had him, it's a new developement, so I'm not sure if it's a diet issue or not. He's always burned off his food quickly, but never looked like a skeleton, nor shown such a weakened state.
Thanks folks.
Any other suggestions for me to give him?
I can't remember the brand of food, I do know it's quality, if may even be grain free.
I do know they checked, and rechecked for parasites, he was found clean. Not sure about the thyroid, I'll find out.
He's had this dog for over a year and a half. The dog didn't have this problem when he first had him, it's a new developement, so I'm not sure if it's a diet issue or not. He's always burned off his food quickly, but never looked like a skeleton, nor shown such a weakened state.
Thanks folks.
Any other suggestions for me to give him?
by Sam1427 on 20 March 2009 - 03:03
My first thought was thyroid. Surely the vet checked that, but let us know. Sometimes the obvious gets missed. If he's eating grain free food, he may indeed need some added grains (carbs) to put some weight on. But the muscle wasting and lack of energy bothers me, as I'm sure it bothers your friend. Has the dog seen a specialist in internal medicine? Are you near a university vet teaching hospital? If so, consider getting a referral.
OK, where's Hodie tonight? She's seen it all.
OK, where's Hodie tonight? She's seen it all.
by EUROSHEPHERDS on 20 March 2009 - 03:03
I had a hi drive female Czech gsd and I had to leave her at home for one week trip due to work and when I came back she had lost so much weight that I had to take her to Vet and after spending good bid of money and all the test came back negative and vet told me that she does not know what cause her wight lost .So I started to double up her food and put her in 4 time feeding and in few weeks she gain back her weight.
by susanandthek9s on 20 March 2009 - 04:03
EPI dogs need carbs and moderate (about 15%) amounts of fat, so stay away from grain-free and super-high or super-low fat foods. Also stay away from fruits, nuts, and veggies--EPI dogs just cannot digest this stuff well. Many EPI dogs have bacterial overgrowth in the gastrointestinal tract, plus inflammatory gastrointestinal disease. This needs to be treated with metronidazole and Tylan (talk to the vet about this).
A very thorough internal medicine workup is also needed.
A very thorough internal medicine workup is also needed.
by macawpower58 on 20 March 2009 - 06:03
I'm also hoping Hodie will show up, I value her knowledge and advice.
Ok, he said he is feeding Eukanuba Wild Turky and multi grains. This is after a long line of others that he tried, that the dog failed to respond to. Not knowing what ingredients his dog needs is confusing to say the least.
Ingredient list:
Turkey, Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Potato, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Meal, Fish Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitr
Crude protein (min.) 23%, crude fat (min.) 14%, crude fiber (max.) 4.0%, moisture (max.) 10.0%, vitamin E (min) 140 IU/kg, omega-6 fatty acids* (min) 1.75%, omega-3 fatty acids* (min) 0.3%.
My first thought also was intestinal bateria overgrowth, wich the tylan takes care of, but if I remember right, it's symptoms are greasy, mucas filled diarrhea, stomach rumbles, and extreme gas. His dog has none of this. In fact his stool has firmed up which is odd, considering he's starving all the time, and can't get enough to eat. He told me he is feeding 6 cups per day, with another 1 1/2 during tracking. Total 7 1/2 per day, broken down into 3 feedings a day (plus tracking).
EUROSHEPHERDS, this has been going on for months. I doubt it's stress caused.
He is looking into his vet records to see if a Thyroid test was done.
This is a vet that is well versed in GSDs, treating the town's police K9's and many sport dogs too, hopefully she'd have checked for that already. I'll know soon.
I've suggested he add some extra carbs, (hoping they won't do harm), because at least they may give his boy at least a feeling of fullness, which he seems to not have, as he's always starving. If he does not have diarrhea, where is the food going?
Susanandthek9's, I'll pass on your advice about the EPI requirements. He's starting to think it's something else, but I know that not all EPI dogs are easily stabilized. Mine was, and he looks at that as what should happen. Yet, I've never heard of an EPI dog having good stool, and still fading, hoping someone will comment on that.
Ok, he said he is feeding Eukanuba Wild Turky and multi grains. This is after a long line of others that he tried, that the dog failed to respond to. Not knowing what ingredients his dog needs is confusing to say the least.
Ingredient list:
Turkey, Brewers Rice, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Potato, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Meal, Fish Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Fish Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Beta-Carotene, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitr
Crude protein (min.) 23%, crude fat (min.) 14%, crude fiber (max.) 4.0%, moisture (max.) 10.0%, vitamin E (min) 140 IU/kg, omega-6 fatty acids* (min) 1.75%, omega-3 fatty acids* (min) 0.3%.
My first thought also was intestinal bateria overgrowth, wich the tylan takes care of, but if I remember right, it's symptoms are greasy, mucas filled diarrhea, stomach rumbles, and extreme gas. His dog has none of this. In fact his stool has firmed up which is odd, considering he's starving all the time, and can't get enough to eat. He told me he is feeding 6 cups per day, with another 1 1/2 during tracking. Total 7 1/2 per day, broken down into 3 feedings a day (plus tracking).
EUROSHEPHERDS, this has been going on for months. I doubt it's stress caused.
He is looking into his vet records to see if a Thyroid test was done.
This is a vet that is well versed in GSDs, treating the town's police K9's and many sport dogs too, hopefully she'd have checked for that already. I'll know soon.
I've suggested he add some extra carbs, (hoping they won't do harm), because at least they may give his boy at least a feeling of fullness, which he seems to not have, as he's always starving. If he does not have diarrhea, where is the food going?
Susanandthek9's, I'll pass on your advice about the EPI requirements. He's starting to think it's something else, but I know that not all EPI dogs are easily stabilized. Mine was, and he looks at that as what should happen. Yet, I've never heard of an EPI dog having good stool, and still fading, hoping someone will comment on that.
by hodie on 20 March 2009 - 15:03
Hello,
Based on the initial post, I would be concerned that the dog does not have EPI at all. Really loose, watery stool is more indicative of an infection of some sort. It is my opinion that there are a variety of reasons why a dog may have transiently low TLI. There are rare dogs here and there who do not do well, even on enzyme supplementation, and who become very thin and remain so. But they are, in my experience, pretty rare. If you give a dog a proper food, and the right enzyme and a malabsorption problem exists and it does not really improve, something else is going on.
Like I always say, one must begin at the beginning. As a minimum, you should have your friend have the dog tested again and again for parasites. The most common cause of the signs you have mentioned are parasites and if they are missed, one goes round and round trying all sorts of things only to get nowhere.
Secondly, it is really impossible to make a good guess at what is going on here. You have not provided enough specific information. I need more information You or your friend may feel free to email me with test results etc. But clearly, something is wrong with this dog. If you email me, I can ask a lot of questions that beg answers.
As a minimum, the dog could have diabetes, hyperthyroid issues (as many have already suggested), Addisons', a malabsorption problem, cancer, a problem with bile, some sort of protein losing enteropathy, kidney or liver trouble. Chronic infections, be they from whatever cause, could be an issue. A GI partial obstruction is not out of the question. A digestive issue is something that should be considered and is different than a malabsorption issue. For now, my suggestion would be to continue working with the vet. As a minimum, get a second opinion too.
I would try one thing first. What kind of enzyme supplement is being given to the dog? Your friend could try backing off of the enzyme over the course of a few days. Then let me know how the stools are. If they are fine, then a pancreatic enzyme problem is unlikely (ruling out a malabsorption issue perhaps). If the stools become worse, then that helps narrow things down. The food he is feeding is WAY too high in fat if the dog is truly having trouble with pancreatic insufficiency. It seems counter intuitive. One thinks "oh, the dog is thin and it needs more fat". Even with enzymes, too much fat makes things worse. Go to a food with 11% or less, less if possible. Add some Wellness canned food which is 5% fat but provides good protein. You say stools are ok, but please describe them.
Tell me what other tests have been done to date? I would also suggest immediately putting the dog on a good vitamin and mineral supplement. Add some cottage cheese to the diet, 2% only. Does the dog drink a lot of water? Pee a lot? Some people are not good at estimating this and his intake and output may need to be monitored more closely, especially if he is in a kennel.
I would consider the following tests to be mandatory to get to the bottom of this: repeated stool samples, CBC, Biochemical panel, urinalysis, and an x-ray of the abdomen and chest. If these were already done, what were the results?
If you or your friend want to email me privately with results, feel free to do so. I am always glad to try to help if I can. I don' look at this site daily. The best thing however, is for your friend to work with a competent vet. Something is amiss here. Finally, I would suggest that if the dog is really doing so poorly, that he should not be worked until this is sorted out.
I hope this provides some food for thought. Good luck.
Based on the initial post, I would be concerned that the dog does not have EPI at all. Really loose, watery stool is more indicative of an infection of some sort. It is my opinion that there are a variety of reasons why a dog may have transiently low TLI. There are rare dogs here and there who do not do well, even on enzyme supplementation, and who become very thin and remain so. But they are, in my experience, pretty rare. If you give a dog a proper food, and the right enzyme and a malabsorption problem exists and it does not really improve, something else is going on.
Like I always say, one must begin at the beginning. As a minimum, you should have your friend have the dog tested again and again for parasites. The most common cause of the signs you have mentioned are parasites and if they are missed, one goes round and round trying all sorts of things only to get nowhere.
Secondly, it is really impossible to make a good guess at what is going on here. You have not provided enough specific information. I need more information You or your friend may feel free to email me with test results etc. But clearly, something is wrong with this dog. If you email me, I can ask a lot of questions that beg answers.
As a minimum, the dog could have diabetes, hyperthyroid issues (as many have already suggested), Addisons', a malabsorption problem, cancer, a problem with bile, some sort of protein losing enteropathy, kidney or liver trouble. Chronic infections, be they from whatever cause, could be an issue. A GI partial obstruction is not out of the question. A digestive issue is something that should be considered and is different than a malabsorption issue. For now, my suggestion would be to continue working with the vet. As a minimum, get a second opinion too.
I would try one thing first. What kind of enzyme supplement is being given to the dog? Your friend could try backing off of the enzyme over the course of a few days. Then let me know how the stools are. If they are fine, then a pancreatic enzyme problem is unlikely (ruling out a malabsorption issue perhaps). If the stools become worse, then that helps narrow things down. The food he is feeding is WAY too high in fat if the dog is truly having trouble with pancreatic insufficiency. It seems counter intuitive. One thinks "oh, the dog is thin and it needs more fat". Even with enzymes, too much fat makes things worse. Go to a food with 11% or less, less if possible. Add some Wellness canned food which is 5% fat but provides good protein. You say stools are ok, but please describe them.
Tell me what other tests have been done to date? I would also suggest immediately putting the dog on a good vitamin and mineral supplement. Add some cottage cheese to the diet, 2% only. Does the dog drink a lot of water? Pee a lot? Some people are not good at estimating this and his intake and output may need to be monitored more closely, especially if he is in a kennel.
I would consider the following tests to be mandatory to get to the bottom of this: repeated stool samples, CBC, Biochemical panel, urinalysis, and an x-ray of the abdomen and chest. If these were already done, what were the results?
If you or your friend want to email me privately with results, feel free to do so. I am always glad to try to help if I can. I don' look at this site daily. The best thing however, is for your friend to work with a competent vet. Something is amiss here. Finally, I would suggest that if the dog is really doing so poorly, that he should not be worked until this is sorted out.
I hope this provides some food for thought. Good luck.
by macawpower58 on 20 March 2009 - 17:03
Thanks Hodie, I'll copy and paste your post to him, and have him dig up any/all tests done and the results.
Hopefully I'll have some a better understanding of what's been done so far, and that'll help with suggestions for him.
I also feel the dog should not be worked right now, but he does go crazy if he has nothing to do. I'll suggst more sedate, thinking exercises for now.
I'd like for him to come on the board and answer everything himself, but he's busy, and seldom on the computer. I may have to be his go between for awhile. :(
The dog is on pancreatic 6X
Hopefully I'll have some a better understanding of what's been done so far, and that'll help with suggestions for him.
I also feel the dog should not be worked right now, but he does go crazy if he has nothing to do. I'll suggst more sedate, thinking exercises for now.
I'd like for him to come on the board and answer everything himself, but he's busy, and seldom on the computer. I may have to be his go between for awhile. :(
The dog is on pancreatic 6X
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