GSD pup not very willing to please, positive training methods. - Page 1

 Hello
new to this message board have read many posts. 

I have a 4.5 month female GSD. She has been a part of our family (3 kids 7-11),  since she was 10 weeks old. She has an interesting temperament, she is either on or off. She is effected by outside stimuli and often very reactive or has a fear barking reaction. She has a pretty high prey drive, and you can imagine how easily she is distracted by movement.  

I have been interacting and training her exclusively using positive reinforcement methods (Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar, Karyn Pryor) I don't believe in dominance theory and alpa rollovers. I don't use leash corrections or other aversive methods to control her. (except a gentle leader head collar on walks)
I do believe that training can be achieved through consistent reinforcement of behaviors you want, and demonstrating leadership through controlling resources and management. I'm home with her all day so we get a lot of interaction time, as well as many, many opportunities to socialize in the world.

Enough about were I'm coming from. My questions are these from day one.
I don't see a general willingness to please in this pup. She is somewhat aloof, she doesn't see petting or praise as rewarding (petting is more of a turn off for her, maybe stressful??), I only get a tail wag (and submissive happiness) when she greets me after an absence. Other than that you would never see a tail wag from this dog. Imagine how hard it is to reinforce a pup to come, when even as a 10 week old she wasn't always overly exuberant about coming to greet you whenever you acted silly or enticing (not timid, but more like why should I?). Unfortunately, for my type of training methods, she isn't very food motivated (now if she was a lab, she would be on me like glue!). Funny thing I'm just looking back on now, when she was real young, I could never get her focus because her nose was always on the ground, there is no treat for her that could compete!!

I wanted to know from other GSD owners/trainers if this is normal for this breed? It seems every owner I've ever talked to tells me about how loyal and attached their dogs are, never leaving their sights, always attentive, looking in the eye.
I have to work SO hard to get any focus on me from this dog. (I always reward any focus she gives me)
The pup definitely has a pushy side, which I keep in check using leadership. (hand feeding meals, compliance before desires, etc.) You can probably tell this is the first GSD I've trained, so I'm sure I have a learning curve

The breeder told me she never uses food as a motivator, "just their desire to be with us and praise is enough", if that was true, I would have barely accomplished training a sit by now!! I'm starting to take this personally, but I don't see myself as being unlikable to animals. I feel connected to them and I always try to see things from their point of view first, and try to judge if I'm being overly pushy, and stop training if it isn't fun or I'm feeling frustrated. I suspect some of the behavior I'm seeing is she has a lower tolerance for stress than other dogs, in that I mean she is sensitive. So I think what I'm seeing is some shutdown.

You can probably tell this is the first GSD I've trained, so I'm sure I have a learning curve. She is definitely a tough one and I often wonder if she had chosen another mom, would they be patient with her?  I'd appreciate any advice, especially from those that have had experience using positive methods. 

Hello prinesurf,

I wanted to know what type of gsd do you have. Is she out of working lines or showlines? Pedigree and breeding does have alot to do with temperment as well as willingness to work or please.

 I am most definitely not a trainer and not experienced, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

But you mention that your training methods would work great on a lab.  When I was reading what you wrote, about her being aloof when you were acting silly, I dunno, I just got the impression that you were, um, "sucking up" to her and so she didn't really "value" your attention?  That may not be a good way to phrase it but...

Coincidentally, just today I was wondering about how GSDs are supposed to be aloof.  My first, and now my second, sure don't seem aloof to me.  My 1st was, and my 2nd now is, just the right amount of non-aloofness to me.  Both would follow me all around everywhere allowed.  If this is aloof, I don't know what not being aloof looks like.

Of course each dog is an individual.  Maybe if you were a bit more aloof to her, didn't fawn over her and beg for her attention... I dunno, that's just my gut feeling.  If anyone says otherwise, I respectfully defer to them!

Interesting question. Can you tell us the bloodlines, as that might help give you some insight.

My GSDs have all been aloof to other people, but not to me. All of them follow me around when given the chance. Aloof for GSDs means not begging other people to pet them, like labs and goldens will. The adults work for praise from their master - me. I do use high quality food treats to teach basic obedience to young puppies. I use food like dried liver, dried chicken (gotta be careful where that came from these days), dried beef.  I use hot dogs bits or string cheese bits to teach tracking and also focus. I don't usually act silly with my GSDs. When I teach commands, I visualize the pup doing the command and use the treat in my hand to shape the behavior as I speak the command.  When the pup actually does the thing I want, I give the treat. You might also try clicker training to shape her behavior, clicking it the second she begins the correct response.

What kind of food are you using for treats, prinesurf? And what lines does your puppy come from? American? German showlines? Workinglines? Some lines are slow to mature and an 18 week old pup isn't going to have great focus usually anyway. When you first teach a command, the area should be distraction free. No kids distracting her, no radio or TV going, no other pets butting in. Only add distractions when the dog knows the command and does it reliably. One person should do the initial training - that would be you. Not you one time, then a child, then another child since you will likely all teach a little differently and only confuse the pup. After your pup knows commands, then other people can teach and proof her on them.

You might consider going to an age appropriate training class. Don't go to PetsMart or PetCo since the quality of trainers is extremely unpredictable at those places. Ask at the specialty pet food places in your area or look online for local obedience clubs. Lots of trainers use clickers these days.

Give her time! This is my dog all over again as a pup. She's now 2 and very loving/responsive due to the amount of time I've put into her. What;'s missing for you is the long relationship & months of training...

you shouldn't care at all how ur dog acts towards others as long as its not bothering them.u r the single most important thing in that gsd's life......................u make the toys/training aids come to life.i would suggest ivan balabanov's methos and check out his trainperview.com site for specific issues.steve  

hello, have you asked the breeder about the bloodline of your new puppy how it produces  trainability and temperament ?

Hopefully the breeder has trained and/or worked with the parents and is somewhat familar with how that bloodline matures and what to expect as the puppies grow. Many breeders also work in clubs or training venues with the progeny and relatives ot their breeding program, so they have good experience with guiding new puppy buyers and directing those puppy buyers into training programs that are appropriate for the owner and bloodline..

cindy

"Funny thing I'm just looking back on now, when she was real young, I could never get her focus because her nose was always on the ground, there is no treat for her that could compete!!"

Have you tried taking her for tracking lessons? Bonding with this dog may require a shared job that is very important to her (like a Border Collie with a high drive to work sheep).