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by ARK08 on 22 February 2009 - 03:02
To all who have commented on this and were not there:
Straight from the grape vine....someone who was there and witnessed what happened. For starts, Frank owned more hard dogs then most of the people on this message board . As far as Inges being too hard for him he's owned Inges for 1 1/2 years and and has been working Inges in personal protection and has put Inges in EVERY scenario possible without incident. This was an inexperienced helper and mistake on Frank's part. None of you have EVER seen Frank with Inges, as I have for the past 1 1/2 years and he has COMPLETE respect and CONTROL over this dog. This was a freak accident as there was an inexperienced helper on the field who was not aware and was not familiar with Inges. Inges DID NOT ATTACK Frank HE ALSO DID NOT REBITE, Frank unfortunately did not move out of the way fast enough when Inges came in. Again, NONE of you have ever seen Inges in action. He is a VERY QUICK and powerful dog and this was something that if an experienced helper had been on the field it would have NEVER happened. The only lesson that should be learned is.... NEVER put an inexperienced helper on the field with a dog of Inges' calibur. Mr. Yahoo you seen to know alot of nothing if you are a member of our club, I would LOVE to see you approach Frank in person on Sunday. Believe me Mr. Yahoo you will leave the field in much worse condition than Frank left last week. Something I would love to see............P.S. If you want to mention Tom Trainor, maybe you should know that he got 24 stitches in his leg tracking a dog and he happens to be one of the best handlers out there. It has nothing to do with being an inexperienced handler when you are out on the field with a dog of Inges calibur you have to be on point at all times. If you make a mistake he'll make you pay!!!!
Yahoo you post someone's phone number why don't you post your phone number because I would love to call you...or are you a message board tough guy...it sounds personal...
Straight from the grape vine....someone who was there and witnessed what happened. For starts, Frank owned more hard dogs then most of the people on this message board . As far as Inges being too hard for him he's owned Inges for 1 1/2 years and and has been working Inges in personal protection and has put Inges in EVERY scenario possible without incident. This was an inexperienced helper and mistake on Frank's part. None of you have EVER seen Frank with Inges, as I have for the past 1 1/2 years and he has COMPLETE respect and CONTROL over this dog. This was a freak accident as there was an inexperienced helper on the field who was not aware and was not familiar with Inges. Inges DID NOT ATTACK Frank HE ALSO DID NOT REBITE, Frank unfortunately did not move out of the way fast enough when Inges came in. Again, NONE of you have ever seen Inges in action. He is a VERY QUICK and powerful dog and this was something that if an experienced helper had been on the field it would have NEVER happened. The only lesson that should be learned is.... NEVER put an inexperienced helper on the field with a dog of Inges' calibur. Mr. Yahoo you seen to know alot of nothing if you are a member of our club, I would LOVE to see you approach Frank in person on Sunday. Believe me Mr. Yahoo you will leave the field in much worse condition than Frank left last week. Something I would love to see............P.S. If you want to mention Tom Trainor, maybe you should know that he got 24 stitches in his leg tracking a dog and he happens to be one of the best handlers out there. It has nothing to do with being an inexperienced handler when you are out on the field with a dog of Inges calibur you have to be on point at all times. If you make a mistake he'll make you pay!!!!
Yahoo you post someone's phone number why don't you post your phone number because I would love to call you...or are you a message board tough guy...it sounds personal...
by ARK08 on 22 February 2009 - 12:02
No he does NOT also breed Italian Mastiffs. Inges is NOT kenneled morons, he lives a better life than most of you dead beats! I have never seen more people say more things without any knowledge or proof! Oh by the way I also heard .............. this.......and this .........please. You have anything to say? You should know where our club is, after all you heard this 3rd or 4th hand why not come and see it first hand, and please if you come mention you got your invitation from this messageboard. I have a sinking feeling no one will come.
by gucci12 on 24 February 2009 - 01:02
who was the helper/trainer
by MVF on 24 February 2009 - 02:02
Your loyalty to Frank and Inges is admirable, and you have made yourself clear.
But the discussion was actually largely a general one about whether or not this sort of thing made sense. Many people admitted freely that the specific details were not known, so the discussion was really not personal, although I can see how you may feel personally offended.
But if you are going to call people morons, you really need to write a literate message. Writing while angy is generally counterproductive, especially for one lacking language skill. Further, writing while angry led to a contradiction.
These two lines are both from you, above:
But it is important that people not take away a negative view of Inges or Frank and that has been recorded. I think you should refrain from mentioning the new helper's name, or you will be guilty of fueling the fire further.
But the discussion was actually largely a general one about whether or not this sort of thing made sense. Many people admitted freely that the specific details were not known, so the discussion was really not personal, although I can see how you may feel personally offended.
But if you are going to call people morons, you really need to write a literate message. Writing while angy is generally counterproductive, especially for one lacking language skill. Further, writing while angry led to a contradiction.
These two lines are both from you, above:
- if an experienced helper had been on the field it would have NEVER happened.
- It has nothing to do with being an inexperienced handler
But it is important that people not take away a negative view of Inges or Frank and that has been recorded. I think you should refrain from mentioning the new helper's name, or you will be guilty of fueling the fire further.
by MVF on 24 February 2009 - 02:02
Notice that I did say this on the other thread:
Given ARK's clarifcation, I think this should be a GENERAL DISCUSSION and not a personal one. We should stop mentioning Inges by name, who was apparently NOT guilty of what was first reported.
Given ARK's clarifcation, I think this should be a GENERAL DISCUSSION and not a personal one. We should stop mentioning Inges by name, who was apparently NOT guilty of what was first reported.
by Slamdunc on 24 February 2009 - 03:02
I will add this...I have seen a police K9 demo, which I was at; although not a participant in the demo where the dog bit the handler accidently.
Here was the scenario: The K9 handler exits his vehicle to approach a subject (who was wearing a full bite suit). This decoy was somewhat inexperienced. The scenario or demo was the "bad guy" in the bite suit would resist and assault the cop, the dog would then deploy through the open police car window to assist the handler. The dog is to remain in the car until called by the handler. So the K9 handler approaches the new decoy and they speak briefly, the decoy then pushes the cop and starts to run and the handler calls the dog. Well the inexperienced decoy, pushes the k9 handler too hard knocking him to the ground, the handler was caught off guard. He calls the dog before he falls; the dog jumps out of the car and races to the 2 men. Remember we are dealing with animals, not satelite guided cruise missiles. Well the decoy doesn't target the dog onto him. Keep in mind the dog is now highly agitated and in a high state of drive. The decoy doesn't run and the only movement the dog sees is the person falling to the ground. So the dog bites the handler in the thigh. The handler, probably the seriously toughest guy I've ever met (and my personal real life hero, for other reasons) lifts the dog off his leg and re-targets the dog on the decoy. As a decoy, you are responsible for what happens and where that dog goes and who he bites. Once properly targeted the dog engaged the decoy and the demo went well after that.
I might add that the dog is one of the hardest that I've ever taken bites from. I winced when I saw the dog bite the handler in the thigh because I know how much that would hurt me. However, this handler was unphased, didn't hurt him much at all. So things can go wrong in training or at trials, the decoy must have the presence of mind to protect everyone on that field. There have been several times that I've saved swat guys and handlers from getting bit by overly excited dogs. Our swat team works with our canines. They will train to lift a dog off a suspect if the handler isn't near by. Think about lifting a police K9 off a bitesuit when he's not your dog. If your the decoy your are responsible for the safety of those 6 or 8 guys that are trying to take you into custody without the handler. Why do we do that you may ask? The handler may be wounded or killed during a high risk operation and someone else will have to remove that dog from the suspect.
From the little I know of this incident, I'd say it was a training mistake. Doesn't make this dog a bad dog, just a bad day of training. I work with SchH dogs and I don't like getting bit it is usually the handlers fault if I get bit. When working with police K9's it's usually my fault if I get bit while decoying. It's very different. But in both venues when I decoy, first I try to keep the handlers and other participants safe then I worry about myself. Play with fire you will get burnt, work dogs long enough you will get bit. That's part of the game.
JMO,
Jim
Here was the scenario: The K9 handler exits his vehicle to approach a subject (who was wearing a full bite suit). This decoy was somewhat inexperienced. The scenario or demo was the "bad guy" in the bite suit would resist and assault the cop, the dog would then deploy through the open police car window to assist the handler. The dog is to remain in the car until called by the handler. So the K9 handler approaches the new decoy and they speak briefly, the decoy then pushes the cop and starts to run and the handler calls the dog. Well the inexperienced decoy, pushes the k9 handler too hard knocking him to the ground, the handler was caught off guard. He calls the dog before he falls; the dog jumps out of the car and races to the 2 men. Remember we are dealing with animals, not satelite guided cruise missiles. Well the decoy doesn't target the dog onto him. Keep in mind the dog is now highly agitated and in a high state of drive. The decoy doesn't run and the only movement the dog sees is the person falling to the ground. So the dog bites the handler in the thigh. The handler, probably the seriously toughest guy I've ever met (and my personal real life hero, for other reasons) lifts the dog off his leg and re-targets the dog on the decoy. As a decoy, you are responsible for what happens and where that dog goes and who he bites. Once properly targeted the dog engaged the decoy and the demo went well after that.
I might add that the dog is one of the hardest that I've ever taken bites from. I winced when I saw the dog bite the handler in the thigh because I know how much that would hurt me. However, this handler was unphased, didn't hurt him much at all. So things can go wrong in training or at trials, the decoy must have the presence of mind to protect everyone on that field. There have been several times that I've saved swat guys and handlers from getting bit by overly excited dogs. Our swat team works with our canines. They will train to lift a dog off a suspect if the handler isn't near by. Think about lifting a police K9 off a bitesuit when he's not your dog. If your the decoy your are responsible for the safety of those 6 or 8 guys that are trying to take you into custody without the handler. Why do we do that you may ask? The handler may be wounded or killed during a high risk operation and someone else will have to remove that dog from the suspect.
From the little I know of this incident, I'd say it was a training mistake. Doesn't make this dog a bad dog, just a bad day of training. I work with SchH dogs and I don't like getting bit it is usually the handlers fault if I get bit. When working with police K9's it's usually my fault if I get bit while decoying. It's very different. But in both venues when I decoy, first I try to keep the handlers and other participants safe then I worry about myself. Play with fire you will get burnt, work dogs long enough you will get bit. That's part of the game.
JMO,
Jim
by Get A Real Dog on 24 February 2009 - 03:02
Actually Jim, we just discussed that in another thread. I have pointed it out many times but I am glad you brought it up, i try to tell every Police K9 handler I can.
It was not a training mistake. This is a common response in canine behavior. No one know exactly why it happens but the dog will almost always go after the person on the bottom. Does not matter if it is handler or bad guy.
I have done this scenario at several police training days. The way we set up the scenario is a traffic stop, usually at night, cop and bad guy fight and go to the ground with bad guy on top of cop. Dog is deployed (with a muzzle) both com and decoy are in plain clothes.
I encourage you to do this scenario with your k9 handlers. This has nothing to do with training and you can not train for it because if you teach a dog to go after someone from the position they are in, What would happen in real life if the positions were reversed?
So we do this to educate handlers of this behavioral respose so they aer aware that it can happen and if they, god forbid, find themselves in that situation, they can think about how to re-direct their partner onto the correct target.
Stay safe,
GARD
It was not a training mistake. This is a common response in canine behavior. No one know exactly why it happens but the dog will almost always go after the person on the bottom. Does not matter if it is handler or bad guy.
I have done this scenario at several police training days. The way we set up the scenario is a traffic stop, usually at night, cop and bad guy fight and go to the ground with bad guy on top of cop. Dog is deployed (with a muzzle) both com and decoy are in plain clothes.
I encourage you to do this scenario with your k9 handlers. This has nothing to do with training and you can not train for it because if you teach a dog to go after someone from the position they are in, What would happen in real life if the positions were reversed?
So we do this to educate handlers of this behavioral respose so they aer aware that it can happen and if they, god forbid, find themselves in that situation, they can think about how to re-direct their partner onto the correct target.
Stay safe,
GARD
by vom Hermes on 24 February 2009 - 04:02
I saw Inges even before Frank owned him. He is not an easy dog to work with.
by Slamdunc on 24 February 2009 - 04:02
Well, it makes sense GARD. When we muzzle fight the dogs we always fall to the ground with the first good impact. Then we fight the dog from the ground and roll away from the dog. I would think in this type of foundation training the dog is used to seeing bad guys on the ground. Couple that with the fact that dogs cans see movement well and can't see stationary objects as well, if the guy on the ground is moving he wil be the target.
I am going to try it at our next K9 training which is this Thursday, we train as a unit 2 x per week. It will be interesting to see whom my dog targets with me on the ground. I'll let you know what happens. The way I look at it reagrdless; the dog is a tool like my baton. If I'm on the ground I've gotten myself into a bad spot. I won't wait or count on the dog to bail me out. I'm gonna fight my way out with or with out the dog. If he engages, which I think he will, great for me, but I'm responsible for us both. I'm going home, if the dog helps that's great. I am smart enough to know both of our limiations if the shit hits the fan I'll do what I need to do.
Be safe,
Jim
by Get A Real Dog on 24 February 2009 - 04:02
Good Jim. I hope you guys do this. I think it will open some eyes......
So set up the traffic stop. Have the "bad guy" exit the vehicle and move to the front of the car. ( I know not really supposed to do this but it is training) That is when the fight begins. Go to the ground, in front of the suspect car, )out of sight for the approaching dog. Be perpendicular to the fron of the suspect vehicle. Officer on the ground, suspect on top, no equipment, dog in muzzle.
It is even better to do this @ night, but does not really matter. Just make sure the muzzle is on tight. Your guys are going to be pissed @ their dogs but remind them this is training and what training is for. I have had handlers want to kick the shit out of their dogs or say they are getting new one's. It is nothing personal, it is just nature.
We call this scenario the "weakest link"
Good luck and stay safe
GARD
So set up the traffic stop. Have the "bad guy" exit the vehicle and move to the front of the car. ( I know not really supposed to do this but it is training) That is when the fight begins. Go to the ground, in front of the suspect car, )out of sight for the approaching dog. Be perpendicular to the fron of the suspect vehicle. Officer on the ground, suspect on top, no equipment, dog in muzzle.
It is even better to do this @ night, but does not really matter. Just make sure the muzzle is on tight. Your guys are going to be pissed @ their dogs but remind them this is training and what training is for. I have had handlers want to kick the shit out of their dogs or say they are getting new one's. It is nothing personal, it is just nature.
We call this scenario the "weakest link"
Good luck and stay safe
GARD
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