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by Get A Real Dog on 21 February 2009 - 03:02
Ok question for you.......
I have a young dog in my club that was worked by some dude for about a year. From what I understand from the handler there was no real bite development and all they did was try to work the B&H. The dog is DDR/czech lines.
According to the handler this guy taught the dog the bark brings the decoy in and used the "hold the tug behind the back so the dog focuses on the man" technique" from like 12 weeks old. What is happening is when you get about 4-5 feet from the dog you start to see some stress. He will back up ever so slightly. He never goes into any type of avoidance but you can see the stress. It took me three sessions before I could get the dog to re-grip. He had no idea how to "win" but now he is doing much better.
What I have been doing is trying to work the dog in total prey (he is also kind of sharp so he is nicely balanced genetically) to get the dog out at the end of the line and NOT worried about the man. I need to do this because I can't really introduce environmental stressors for PSA if the dog is to worried about me. So I have been doing alot prey work and dragging the dog into the bite to get the dog to go forward. I have had some success. BUT as soon as I stand square to the dog, he goes back into not moving forward and showing a little sign of stress.
So what I am reading in the dog is there was no bite development so he had no confidance in his bite and way to much pressure was put on the dog to early. He is a little soft but if I apply a little pressure on the grip he bring aggression (some would can him "nervy") but I am not concerned because I think he will be fine once he learns how to win through the aggression.
The trainer in me really wants to fix it, but it is going to take me awhile to undo what has been done to the dog. So I am trying to decide whether to fix it or go ahead and start introducing the environmental stress and teach him to win though the aggresssion he brings.
Suggestions?
I have a young dog in my club that was worked by some dude for about a year. From what I understand from the handler there was no real bite development and all they did was try to work the B&H. The dog is DDR/czech lines.
According to the handler this guy taught the dog the bark brings the decoy in and used the "hold the tug behind the back so the dog focuses on the man" technique" from like 12 weeks old. What is happening is when you get about 4-5 feet from the dog you start to see some stress. He will back up ever so slightly. He never goes into any type of avoidance but you can see the stress. It took me three sessions before I could get the dog to re-grip. He had no idea how to "win" but now he is doing much better.
What I have been doing is trying to work the dog in total prey (he is also kind of sharp so he is nicely balanced genetically) to get the dog out at the end of the line and NOT worried about the man. I need to do this because I can't really introduce environmental stressors for PSA if the dog is to worried about me. So I have been doing alot prey work and dragging the dog into the bite to get the dog to go forward. I have had some success. BUT as soon as I stand square to the dog, he goes back into not moving forward and showing a little sign of stress.
So what I am reading in the dog is there was no bite development so he had no confidance in his bite and way to much pressure was put on the dog to early. He is a little soft but if I apply a little pressure on the grip he bring aggression (some would can him "nervy") but I am not concerned because I think he will be fine once he learns how to win through the aggression.
The trainer in me really wants to fix it, but it is going to take me awhile to undo what has been done to the dog. So I am trying to decide whether to fix it or go ahead and start introducing the environmental stress and teach him to win though the aggresssion he brings.
Suggestions?
by Uber Land on 21 February 2009 - 03:02
just a question,
he is part DDR lines, could this be a maturity issue?
I am sure with your level of training and knowledge you would have thought about this already, but I just wanted to ask anyway
he is part DDR lines, could this be a maturity issue?
I am sure with your level of training and knowledge you would have thought about this already, but I just wanted to ask anyway
by Get A Real Dog on 21 February 2009 - 03:02
Yeah, I think that has a part to play but a dog with a proper foundation would not be doing this.
by Uber Land on 21 February 2009 - 03:02
I agree with the proper foundation.
If this was my dog, and he came to me like this, I would start by working him with a rag on the end of a horse whip or line. just like I would start a puppy. get that prey drive going and move from that to holding a rag and playing tug games where he got to win most of the time, just really build that confidence up. from there, bait with the rag and trick him to hitting the sleeve.
I probably went waay off point with this, and it probably isn't even what you were asking for.
If this was my dog, and he came to me like this, I would start by working him with a rag on the end of a horse whip or line. just like I would start a puppy. get that prey drive going and move from that to holding a rag and playing tug games where he got to win most of the time, just really build that confidence up. from there, bait with the rag and trick him to hitting the sleeve.
I probably went waay off point with this, and it probably isn't even what you were asking for.
by Get A Real Dog on 21 February 2009 - 04:02
Not way off point but I don't have to go that far backward. He bites a soft sleeve and thick bite pillow no problem wit a nice full grip, if I pressure him a bit he bites full and pretty damn hard.
He does just fine either in prey or if he is stressed a little. He just gets stressed to easy at this point.
What I am going at is should I worry or try so hard to fix him not always coming totally forward when I giv ehim the full frontal presentation. He does it even if I am a good distance away so some of it is that is just how he thinks he gets the bite.
He does just fine either in prey or if he is stressed a little. He just gets stressed to easy at this point.
What I am going at is should I worry or try so hard to fix him not always coming totally forward when I giv ehim the full frontal presentation. He does it even if I am a good distance away so some of it is that is just how he thinks he gets the bite.
by realcold on 21 February 2009 - 04:02
Put a 6' leash on what ever he bites best. Show only side presententation until after the bite. Keep everything slow and non confrontational. Now make prey with the bite. Use the leash to your advantage by using your body and hands to control. Do not pull him in by hands only as it will cause him to think his grip is not working. Only let him win at first with momentary frontal positioning. Work up to where he knows he only wins in prey from the front. It will take a bit of time but you are trying to make his enemy his friend. Never eliminate all stress as it makes them avoid stress. Take your time. Enjoy the work as this is where we can learn and have fun.
by Uber Land on 21 February 2009 - 04:02
I think realcold has a good suggestion.
I think it will come with a little confidence building and some maturity on his part.
<but I am also one of those people who thinks the dog should not view the helper as his friend>
I think it will come with a little confidence building and some maturity on his part.
<but I am also one of those people who thinks the dog should not view the helper as his friend>
by Elkoorr on 21 February 2009 - 04:02
G-A-R-Dog,
that dog should be now arround 15 months old, right? At this point I would go on with the introduction of the stressors to bring out the fight. Part will still be prey (movement) but the teasing will make the game and build the confidence. The stress you see is a part genetical conflict between prey and defense (the other part is wrong imprinting). If that dog comes more after DDR, then the dog is confused about its "feelings". The genes tell it to act in defense, but the dog is not mature enough to deal with it. You will be riding a fine line. Good luck.
that dog should be now arround 15 months old, right? At this point I would go on with the introduction of the stressors to bring out the fight. Part will still be prey (movement) but the teasing will make the game and build the confidence. The stress you see is a part genetical conflict between prey and defense (the other part is wrong imprinting). If that dog comes more after DDR, then the dog is confused about its "feelings". The genes tell it to act in defense, but the dog is not mature enough to deal with it. You will be riding a fine line. Good luck.
by realcold on 21 February 2009 - 04:02
Elk. The dog has no problem starting the work. It is apprehension just before the bite by slightly moving off. Bites hard with prey leading him in if I read correctly. Prey then stress with win AFTER the bite makes more sense to me.
by Get A Real Dog on 21 February 2009 - 04:02
That is interesting.
One part of why I am not 100 % sure about what I am seeing is because the only DDR dog I have ever worked was an advanced adult so I have no experience with bringing up a DDR/Czech line dog.
He has the prey and works fine in it, but I see people here talk about how you need to work your DDR/Czech dogs in defense so that is what I am trying to figure out with this dog.
One part of why I am not 100 % sure about what I am seeing is because the only DDR dog I have ever worked was an advanced adult so I have no experience with bringing up a DDR/Czech line dog.
He has the prey and works fine in it, but I see people here talk about how you need to work your DDR/Czech dogs in defense so that is what I am trying to figure out with this dog.
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