Defining terms more precisely - Page 1

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Bucko

by Bucko on 19 February 2009 - 07:02

A lot of people will find this somewhat redundant, some will find it useful, and I hope everyone could stand to learn something - at least with respect to how much we can misunderstand each other.  Could we take a few moments to define our terms better -- expressions we use all the time, and we probably only half understand each other?

1) prey drive

2) food drive

3) defense drive

4) hunt drive

5) social versus civil

6) natural aggression




elenih

by elenih on 19 February 2009 - 07:02

Good idea Bucko.  Oli, do you have the ability to make posts "sticky"?

I admin a few other boards, and the questions that come up repeatedly are made sticky, and remain at the beginning of the board for newcomers to see.  Like an FAQ for newbies...

- Eleni





Bucko

by Bucko on 19 February 2009 - 08:02

Thanks.

It looks like I should start.  My point is NOT that I know, but this is what I mean or think people mean.  Correct me or improve me if you can, please.

1) prey drive - from the obvious drive to run down prey, this is VISUAL, and translates into desire to CHASE and chase REPEATEDLY, hence the return/retrieve of objects to handler to keep at the game.

2) food drive - I am not quite sure if people mean something more than a willingness to work for food.

3) defense drive - Has a clearly defined fight circle (in the sense of fight or flee).  That is, if you get close enough, the dog shows hackles and shows s/he is willing to stand his or her ground and defend (as opposed to fleeing).  I think people also mean as an extra condition that the flee circle is not so large than the dog flees before ever having the fight circle tested.  In fact, I am guessing some people want their gsd's to have NO flee circle, so you just walk right into the fight circle and deal with defense.

3b) I should add fight drive here -- I think people are describing the common characteristic of some dogs and not other others to tussle vigorously, challenging, being aggressive, taking control.  I am NOT sure if people mean something related to defense here.  That is, can a dog have purely sport fight drive?  Like a good natured but tough wrestler? Or do people mean that fight drive has to be serious with intent to do harm?

4) hunt drive - this is like prey, but it is OLFACTORY instead of VISUAL (see prey) and after visual and auditory stimulation has passed, the hunt drive kicks in if it exists.  So it shows up in pups and dogs who are focused on scent, use their nose, don't lose their attention, but pursue a scent with a drive to find what's at the other end of the trail.

5) social versus civil -- weird etymology here, I think.  Social means the dog behaves well socially (off the training field) while civil means the dog is willing to employ weapons in civilian life, too -- hence, civil does not mean civil in the sense of polite, but aggressive to civilians without sleeves.  Do most people think social v civil is the same as sport v real?

6) natural aggression -- I have never figured out what people really mean by this, but they use it in describing puppies often.  Is this is growly, teeth baring, high pitched shrieking that some little lunatic puppies go through and are we to believe such puppy behaviors translate into sport or real virtues later?  (Early dog behavioral research -- e.g., Scott and Fuller -- showed some breeds and lines were more aggressive as pups but less aggressive as adults, so I don't actually understand what people are saying by this.)

Does this get anything productive going?

London

by London on 19 February 2009 - 08:02

I have never heard of the social vs. civil distinction so when I initially read your list the first thing that came to my mind was social would be used to describe a dog that genuinely enjoyed social situations while civil might be used to describe a dog that was trained to tolerate similar situations while not necessarily enjoying them. For example, my current boy isn't just good when around other people and kids, he loves it and their attention. My last guy never acted out around other people, or visibly showed his displeasure but I would have to say he never really enjoyed it. Stoic would be the word to describe him. It was the training that kept him in check, or civil if you will.

A pretty simplistic interpretation but the one that immediately came to mind as an owner of companion dogs. I'm curious to know how others interpret this, or how it is typically defined.

Great topic Bucko!

by gsdterrier on 19 February 2009 - 12:02

I also think this is a great topic Bucko. I really don't know what people mean when they say 'civil'.


by beetree on 19 February 2009 - 12:02

 Okay, Good topic!

I am in no way an expert, having received my GED in GSD on the PDB, so I hope an expert will correct me, if this is wrong,

I think part of your definition on Prey Drive is incorrect in that the retrieving aspect would be called, BALL DRIVE.


Q Man

by Q Man on 19 February 2009 - 14:02

I think these terms are very difficult for anyone to describe....And everyone will interrept them differently...But basically there really aren't that many drives...but there are many sub-drives...Another words...Drives that are really a part of another one...For instance...There's Prey Drive...Well a derivative of this would be what we call Ball Drive...The act of chasing something...
Helmut Raiser has the best book out about Protection Work and how to describe it and utilize it...
As folks on this board...and when we use a term...then I think the best thing to do is to define it as we know it and then discuss each others definition...Then everyone will be on the same page...

~Bob~

Two Moons

by Two Moons on 19 February 2009 - 14:02

It could become a sticky situation

4pack

by 4pack on 19 February 2009 - 15:02

According to Helmuts definitions...

What are drives? Unfortunately, people have forgotten what the term is meant to describe. It shouldn't be used to give a name to every little thing a dog does. Drives are the internal impulses and urges that motivate animals-- in this case dogs-- to take certain actions. In order for something to be classified as a drive there has to be a drive specific stimulus, drive specific action, and a drive goal. We can manipulate the drives in our dogs during training to suit our purposes and to get them to perform tasks that are the results of these manipulated drives. However, we should never lose sight of the fact that a drive has biological significance for the animal and its species. It is this biological significance that is specific to every drive that gives us a better idea of what we can and cannot achieve by manipulating the drive. Drives can be split into two main categories. The criteria that create the division are the drive goals. One category contains the drives that lead to the gain of something positive or pleasurable; for example: sex drive, prey drive, pack drive (in this case the desire to be with members of the same species). In this category there is a tone of excitement and lust during the drive action and deep satisfaction when the goal is reached. The other category contains the drives that lead to the prevention of something negative or harmful; for example: defense drive, flight drive, the desire to remain unscathed. In this category there is a tone of stress and tension during the drive action and relief when the goal is reached.

Prey drive is part of a dog's food gathering behaviour. In a predatory animal that means prey drive governs hunting and killing techniques. Chasing, flushing, pouncing, biting, and shaking-to-death, are the most important of these techniques when we are talking about protection training. In order to stimulate these instinctive techniques in the dog, we have to keep in mind what a real prey animal does when it is hunted.   Prey is always on the move, it always moves in an evasive fashion, and it is panic-stricken.  These behaviours in turn trigger pursuit, pouncing, biting, pulling, and shaking-to-death in the dog.  Prey drive is inborn, and is a trainable instinct, meaning it can be enhanced or reduced. Prey drive can be exhausted, meaning that a time will come when the dog "doesn't feel like performing the desired behaviours any more."  Author's note: Considering the serious effects the end result of this drive would have on a prey animal, I do not subscribe to the idea that prey work is only a silly game.





 


4pack

by 4pack on 19 February 2009 - 15:02

Defense drive counts as one of the dog's aggression behaviours, and it can appear in conjunction with other behaviours.  Threatening, staring, and biting are typical defensive reactions. Defense behaviour is generally triggered by threats, real or perceived, or open aggression.  The goal of defense behaviour is always to create avoidance behaviour in the threatener.  Defense drive may appear as defense of prey, defense of puppies, defense of territory, defense against the unfamiliar, or self-defense.  The drive is satisfied in each case when the aggressor shows avoidance behaviour.  Defense drive is not subject to exhaustion, so it can be activated at will. It should, therefore, be part of the combative behaviour of any protection dog.  Furthermore, it is responsible for behaviours like countering when under stress or when threatened.  The great danger when working a dog in defense drive is that the same stimuli which cause defense behaviour also cause avoidance behaviour.  Which of the two possible behaviours is displayed by a dog when a trigger stimulus is presented is dependant on a variety of factors, among them confidence and temperament of the dog as well as the threatener, "life" experiences of the dog, age and maturity of the dog, location (unfamiliar or home turf), distance between adversaries, and the presence of other external influences (prey, mate, puppies).  Author's note: Hopefully this allows people to see defense for the double-edged sword it is.  Defense is one part of protection training.  The idea that good dogs should only be worked in defense is a dangerous one which has wrecked many great dogs.

 

Aggression behaviour contains reactive aggression (defense) as well as active aggression (social aggression).  With all the different theories that exist about aggression, there still is no conclusive proof available as to whether or not genuine spontaneous aggression exists.  The three theories about where aggression comes from are:

  • Aggression is learned.
  • Aggression is created by negative experiences.
  • Aggression is inborn.

 

The truth is probably that aggression results from all three processes.  Research is available to support all three theories.  For our purposes however, we should concern ourselves less with where aggression comes from and more with what triggers it, what its goal is, and what its biological significance is.  The triggers for reactive aggression (defense) was covered under the previous heading.  So, lets deal with active aggression.  It is always intraspecific, meaning social aggression, and is the result of competition over things (territory, food, mates, etc.).  Intraspecific aggression is activated by rivals, and by anti-social behaviour.  The goal of the drive is to cause avoidance, submission, or worse of the rival.  Biological significance is the even distribution of a species over available land to reduce the possibility of food shortages and epidemics as well as survival of a species and a pack by selecting the fittest animals for reproduction and as leaders.  In species with a social hierarchy behaviours developed from the aggressive drive, which limit the negative results and guarantee the positive results of social aggression such as threatening, dominance, submission, and rituals of non-physical combat.

Aggression increases through maturation and practise.  It can also be increased or decreased through training and through external influences, for example pain can be aggression stimulating. 






 


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