Confusing pedigree

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by BlackthornGSD on 09 February 2009 - 05:02

I was looking up the pedigree for a dog listed here for sale, and this seemed wrong.

How did a black female come out of the breeding of those 2 parents? Is the pedigree the wrong one for that dog? Or do you think that there is a black recessive somewhere in that motherline?

www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/584547.html

Christine
blackthornkennel.com

by eichenluft on 09 February 2009 - 05:02

seems unlikely that is the correct pedigree or at least the motherline - unless Norma Jean was black or black recessive, passing it on to Bernhard who carried black, and gave the black recessive to Quana - if so, guess that would then be possible. But seems unlikely.

molly

by Kenan on 09 February 2009 - 07:02

Too many ifs and maybes.

by VKFGSD on 09 February 2009 - 11:02

Among other things she carries lines to Marko Cellerland. Marko carried the black recessive see http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1389.html . Perhaps this is the source or another dog from this era.

You have to keep in mind that the old VA dogs of the 50s,60s and early 70s are behind both working and showlines today because it was prior to the bifurcation of the breed. Guess where the working lines get the genes for black and bi-color and sable. The lesson is a color recessive can stay hidden for 6,8,10 generations until it finally meets up with a partner.

by BlackthornGSD on 09 February 2009 - 17:02

The lesson is a color recessive can stay hidden for 6,8,10 generations until it finally meets up with a partner.

Good point--it's just a lot of unlikelihoods. Not impossible, though. However, I would have thought that the black recessive would have had some influence over the color of the dogs in the pedigree. It's a recessive, sure, but you often see indications of a dog carrying the black recessive--such as black toe marks in sables and a heavy and dark saddle in black/tans.

I suppose a dog could have the fading pigment gene (ala Uran W.) AND the black recessive. It just seems unlikely. I wonder if anyone has done breeding to regain the black recessive in the showlines and found out what influence it does have phenotypically.

Christine

by eichenluft on 09 February 2009 - 17:02

Christine, you remember Clare Hill's dog Kira - black/tan saddle-markings, not strong pigment "normal" mask and saddle - sire Pike (black dog) so it's not always obvious in the color/darkness - but you are right - usually it is.

molly

by Kaffirdog on 09 February 2009 - 18:02

I'd never make assumptions on a dog carrying black by the colour, you just can't tell.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/506754.html

This dog of mine was from generations of pale coloured dogs, but she produced black in her first litter. She did have a black dog about 3 generations back on her mothers side, but all the bitches in a direct line from that dog (Dux) were the same colour as her or more faded. Her first litter consisted of 5 blacks and 5 the same black and pale tan as herself.

Margaret N-J

by TIG on 09 February 2009 - 22:02

Most old time breeders will tell you that if you want to improve pigment in your lines do NOT breed to a black rather breed to a dark sable or bi-color. Also the "red" which is so popular in today's show lines has always been associated with color paling not with strong rich colors.

Christine re a lot of unlikelihoods - seen it happen before. I've personally seen a white produced from a solid B/T pedigree but one that had heavy linebreeding back in the 7th-10th generation on one known white carrier.

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