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by EisenFaust on 26 January 2009 - 16:01
Do we breed higher drive dogs to cover up the lack of good trainers who develope drives and teach the work, not just having a dog who bites and chases things because he has not had his ADHD medicine yet? Have trainers lost the ability to actually train and not just handle the dog, and let the helper steer the dog into position? So trainers and breeders what do you think?
by VonIsengard on 26 January 2009 - 16:01
Furthermore, HYPERACTIVITY DOES NOT EQUAL DRIVE! These dogs sure are flashy, but all they are good for is a schutzhund field, and I think that's kind of sad. You know how many trainers think just because a dog is not screaming bloody murder and nearly hanging itself to get to a sleeve or tug or rug that it's a crap dog? Give me a break. A truly talented trainer can utilize well the drives of ANY dog.
I prefer a dog is is watchful, quietly intense, smart enough to hold his/her energy in and then explode with power when asked by their handler. I personally prefer a dog who is a controlled beast on a field and a lover at home. I think dogs of this type are more stable and safe to have around people, children, and dogs. A working line dog that comes to mind immediately is Shelley Strohl's dog. I met him once when I stayed over to pick up my bitch, and he left a lasting impression. He was calm, gentlemanly, sweet with my daughter but with a working career that speaks for itself.
For me, drive can go so far extreme that a dog can become nervy, and this should be just as much of a mental fault as a dog who is too weak to work. I would love to pick the brains of some working line people who feel the same, as these are the kinds of dogs I want to incorporate into my showlines.
by 4pack on 26 January 2009 - 16:01
I don't feel higher drives makes training easier, once you get too high you get the nervy issues and that makes for more trianing and fixing crap.
I own one of the solid dogs that can come right in after traning and snuggle with the kids. I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. He's not crazy out on the field in regards to flying into the helper but he bites full and hard everytime, no popping off, no refusals to bite, no crazy issues to work through.
I think alot of people are breeding dogs with too much prey, the dogs don't even know what to do with all of that energy, they chew pn themsleves, bark, dig, escape, can't be offleash around kids, are just a PITA to own and end up outside in a kennel unless they are being worked. Not the kinda dog I want or what I want for my dog.
by VonIsengard on 26 January 2009 - 16:01
by EisenFaust on 26 January 2009 - 16:01
How many dogs have you been told that this is the example of a working dog, and when you see him he is so wound up that the handler can barely handle him. The dog flipps out of his own skin to get to the sleeve or ball. Then when the 5 minutes of work is over and the next 23 hours and 55 minutes comes what do you do, let me quess put him in the kennel and forget about him right. (I am not attacking in this next question or comment), you mentioned that training a high drive dog and fixing his nerve problem or handling a high driv dog requires a good trainer, but can you really fix bad nerves, cover them yes but fix? I have worked dogs mali, GSD and so on that would eat you up, the long bite for a helper would be a truly dangerous thing because of the speed and power these dogs bring. The dogs bite full and hard and try and shake you to death, but the minute the dog is out of drive and is approached by a stranger the dogs is stressed and the signs of the nerves comes to the for front. These dogs are tens on the field and quess what people breed these dogs as working dogs. Or how about the sch3, national competer that chews up his handler because he was correcting him, what about the dogs who are PSD who all they are good at is biting?
by snajper69 on 26 January 2009 - 16:01
I like balance in my dogs, I want the right amount of drives which I can utilize and make my training easier, but the dog needs to have a on and off switch, drives for work and calm nature for home. I will always prefer solid nerves over high drives, I can work the drives up but nerves, well we all know, either you got them or you don't.
Now to answear your question Breeding or training? I think it's both, some trainers find working with high drive dog to be easier and faster, breeders breed because it will be easier to sell that kind of dog, and sometimes it will cover some of it's issues (sport only, in real life week nerves will come out).
Nerves or drives? hmmm Once again both but more stress on nerves. It might take longer to train a dog with less drives but I believe the connection is stronger with the handler and the dog usually performs because he wants to please it's handler rather than satisfy it's drives. But we all know that dog with no pray drive is usless as well.
by VonIsengard on 26 January 2009 - 17:01
Eisenfaust, I'm not sure what your questions are here. It seems as though we agree. As for a SchH3 national competitor chewing up its handler...if a dog who is supposed to trained to that level would do that, there is a serious relationship problem between the handler and the dog. I do believe that training a dog to work for a toy rather than the handler will create this problem. One day, the handler may need to correct that dog. If the correct bond and working relationship is not there, damn right that dog might come up the leash.
You can hide nerves with good training, and strong drives may hide nerves to the inexperienced eye...but you cannot, in my opinion, "fix" them. Furthermore, I do not think this type of dog is appropriate in any way for PPD work. Teaching an unstable dog to engage, with no equipment, on what the dog perceives as a civil threat, is creating a loose cannon.
by RLHAR on 26 January 2009 - 17:01
Personally I want a dog to have drive to do the work.
Whether that work is following the track, a strong and quick retrieve of the dumbell or bringing the fight to the helper, I want my dog to have the drive to be out there with me doing the work and enjoying themselves.
Maybe I got lucky out of the box with my bitch, because she brings drive for the work along with clear headedness and steady nerves that makes her a delight to have around children and the house. Now, if you saw them out on the field together, you'd say that my male has more 'ball' drive and that's true, he's crazy for the toy but he doesn't have the same drive to work that my female does.
One of the reasons why I work her purposefully and take him out now and again to play around with.
by VonIsengard on 26 January 2009 - 17:01
by Christopher Smith on 26 January 2009 - 17:01
I think people often get confused between nerves and drive. One has NOTHING to do with the other. You can have a dog that has high drives and strong nerves. That is the dog that most working enthusiast are looking for.
I hate the term nerves. It means nothing and adds to the confusion. What most people are talking about, when they say nerves, is stress thresholds. Thresholds correlate to the dog’s ability to withstand stimulus. A dog with a high stress threshold is less likely to see and thus react to stimulus.
So if I am looking for a dog for sport or police I am more likely to choose a dog with high drives and lower stress thresholds because I need the dog to react quickly. What good is a protection that never gets aroused enough to protect? If I am looking for a family dog I want a dog that has high thresholds. The drive level of a family dog depends on the family. An active family might love a dog that is go-go –go. A less active family might like a dog with lower drives. And neither type of dog is wrong.
What is wrong is a dog with low drive and low thresholds. This type of dog is useless to everyone. This is the dog that is a fear biter. This is the dog that is so spun up that he works himself into a stress case. These are the dogs that people love to call “nerve bags”.
But remember, you can never judge a dog's “nerves” by looking at them on the sport field. Some dogs that look nervy on the field look that way because that’s the way they are trained to look. To get the best points the dog is taught that when he hits the field he is to have quick reactions to all stimuli. If you see the dog at home though he is trained to be the opposite and might look the same as your medium threshold dog.
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