Ursus Batu and dilute colors - Page 1

I am not here to start any arguments, or to bash anyones dogs.  I just want to clear that up beforehand.  I know this is a touchy subject with some breeders, the production of blues and livers. and many people say it is an american problem. I have ever heard alot of people blame the whites for the mismark dogs and dilutes.

I have recently seen liver puppies sired by Larus Batu in Europe.  and it has been brought to my attention a highly successful Ursus Batu son in the states has produced liver puppies.  With  All these breeders who are heavily linebreeding on Ursus, are we fixen to see an explosion of liver puppies being born? 

??? AFAIK, Ursus himself is NOT a liver carrier. The genes must have come from the mother's side. There have certainly been enough Ursus progeny for this to be proven!

Ursus DOES tend to produce females that have faded colour, though. I happen to own one of them!

 In spaniels, at least, both male and female must carry the liver gene.  I'm not sure if this applies in shepherds.

Micky

both parents must carry for the liver gene,  its just seems too coincedental for most of the livers I have seen out of german lines are descendants of Ursus. 

how do you know Ursus didn't carry the gene?  was he tested for it?  Just because he has produced alot of progeny does not mean that the liver puppies weren't culled or given away without anyone knowing he produced them.

I agree with uber land on the whole theory.Must have been culls if he produces livers.

I have an Ursus son that has sired 6 litters here and 9 in Germany. As far as I know, no livers have ever been thrown.

if a dog sires 1 dilute puppy out of 600,  it is still a carrier.  and if Ursus did produce livers,  it doesn't mean some of his progeny would.  it is a roll of the dice.  not all of his progeny would have the gene passed to them.

http://www.gsdbluesnlivers.8k.com/genetics.html 

this link states both parents must carry the gene to produce livers and blues

I have one particular female, that produces blue, and one blue, that obviously carries for blue.When bred togeather, I get many more Solid blacks, than I ever had Blues. She had one litter of 10 pups, that was all Solid Black!

Just because Larus produced a liver does NOT mean Urus had the gene! It could have come from Larus's mother, then the puppy's mother was the other carrier.

And the odds are VERY much against Ursus never having produced liver if he was a carrier. The gene is fairly common both in the German lines and the American. I can't believe that in his whole long life he was never mated with a female who was also a carrier.