Very very frustrated

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by scubasigguy on 16 January 2010 - 01:01

As I posted earlier, while looking for references, I am looking for a Mal pup. I have spoken to several breeders, left messages and sent emails to many more. Most of the breeders don't call back, or they answer the email several days or even a week later, if at all. My favorites are the ones who I talk to and seem great, but when I email them with four or five question and ask for references they respond back to one question, and ignore the rest. So, I'll send another with the four remaining questions and they respond back just answering one of my questions. So like any any good pup I think I have figured out the game and I email them again and they either stop responding, or they answer some questions that I didn't ask. UGH!

Do that many people just buy pups without asking questions? I feel like I am pestering people just to get answers that they should freely offer, if they wish to do business.

I have googled some of these smaller breeders looking for complaints, and problems from previous clients, and then followed up on those as well. Everyone I speak to has a different opinion, and whoever I am talking to at the time, always has an opnion that is the polar opposite of the last person I spoke with.

I tend to do a great deal of research on anything that I spend money on (which drives my wife crazy sometimes), and this pup is going to be a member of the family for hopefully the next 12-15 years, so I want to get it right.

Being a novice it's so hard to sort through all of the BS out there...I had a women I spoke to earlier today tell me that ALL Mals are like a ticking bomb, just waiting to bite someone. She said that they can't make decisions for themselves, are awful to have around children, and that someone would get bitten sooner or later. She told me to get a GSD instead, and to import one from Europe because all of the US bred GSD's are "shit". She has been training dogs for 15+years and owns two Mals, but hers are the exception to the rule. She doesn't breed dogs and she promised me she was just being honest.

I have had more than one breeder trash another breeder in an unprofessional manner as well.

Maybe I'm just not looking in he right places?

I have been researching the breed for the last 3 months, and I firmly believe that a Mal is what I want. I have spent hours on the phone with several trainers including a very good local trainer who has worked with Mals for over 20

by scubasigguy on 16 January 2010 - 01:01

years, and I am comfortable with the challenge of training a Mal. That being said, I am not looking for the meanest, hardest hitting, strongest gripping Mal out there. I want a dog that can live with my family and our guests, possibly compete in obedience training, maybe ScH one day, run with me for an hour or two every day, and protect my family when I am away, without killing the mailman. A dof good looking enough and of the correct structure to compete in local conformation events if I want. I want to be able to take my dog anywhere I go, and have him or her be fine in whatever setting that may be, unless I tell the dog otherwise. I want to get a pup with the best pedigree possible for my needs, because I think that at 8 weeks old that's probably all I have to go on until the dog matures further.

Oh, and I would like to bring the pup home by March or April at the latest, if possible. Not because I am in a hurry, but because that will be excellent weather here in Texas, and I want to spend as much time outside woring the pup before the heat of summer hits, shortenning or sessions a bit (for my sake).

Are my expectations out of line?

It just seems that there is so little reliable information out there, making my decision much harder than it should be.

Rant over. If anyone has any constructive advice, I'd be happy to listen, I'm all ears. It's even mre obvious to me that a Mal is what I want or I would have thrown in the towel after dealing with some of these folks.

Thanks,

SSG

by Phil Behun on 16 January 2010 - 03:01

You're asking for the perfect experience with animal. Shopping around is great when you are searching for a set of speakers. Basically you are looking at the same manufacturer from different suppliers. NOT SO in dogs. Not everything is the same, not even from the same litter. Personally, when I am looking for a puppy, I look at the pedigrees of the parents, the scorebooks of the parents, if possible and then I say send me one. I don't ask for pictures, videos or any other of the modern conveniences that are commonly available. IT'S A PUPPY!!!!!!! You start with the proper genetics, cross your fingers, and you make the rest. The dog is a piece of clay and you make the sculpture. You're looking for a photograph of you with your wife, your 2.5 children, your Golden Retriever with your Jeep in front of your cushy suburban home. No dog is perfect and fits every purpose. Some are better at certain things than others, training can help but some holes are never patched, it all depends on which holes you can live with. Good luck with your search but I think you're putting too much pressure on finding the "perfect" dog with the "perfect" temperament and "perfect" work ethic for the "perfect" price with the "perfect" breeder contract. Again, this is dogs, not retail, take a deep breath and look forward to getting your new dog, no pressure.

by vincentpmchugh on 16 January 2010 - 05:01

Agreed with the previous post, I also told you that there are many pet quality pups that come out of working lines!!!!! But wanting the first or second pick of a litter is going to be nearly impossible for the time frame that you are expecting to get a pup. Good luck again in your search and if I were you I would be more open to looking for a breeder that will help you choose a pup that is going to be the best for your situation. Follow the advice of the above post and look for good genetics then discuss with the breeder what you are looking for then let them suit you with a pup that will be best for your needs!!!! Somtimes what you want and what fits your situation are not the same. If you were a SCH trainer or a Police Officer or even just a Competitor in a dog sport of any kind it would be a different situation, due to the fact that you would have been more exposed to the dogs and it would be much easier for you to get what you want. Again feel free to give me a call at any time to discuss this further if need be!!! 720-951-1458

by malndobe on 16 January 2010 - 05:01

Although I do understand your frustration, it may be something as simple as people being busy. I know I routinely return phone calls anywhere from a day or two after I get them to a week later. And I hate to admit it, but if more then a week has gone by since I recieved the call, sometimes I will hesitate to return the call at all. The delay is for a variety of reasons, but one of the biggest is that I work a full time job, train dogs 5 days a week, and have other commitments to fulfill in my spare time. By the time I get home from training it may be to late to call people back who are on the west coast, and it's definitely to late to call someone on the East coast back. So I either spend most of the afternoon/evening on my "day off" (weekday evening I'm not training) on the phone with people, or I just wait until the weekend when I have some free time in the morning or ... And since I try to return the calls that have been waiting the longest, more recent calls get pushed out. Emails are much easier for me to respond to since I can reply at midnight if that's when I have time, and don't have to worry about when the person I'm replying to reads it, since they can do that at their convinence. I should also mention I probably average at least 20 inquiries a week from people via phone and email. 30-60 minutes a person, which is what a phone call usually lasts, can add up fast.

I think the average Malinois breeder is like me. I know a few who make their actual income from the dogs, and should therefore be quicker to respond to phone calls since their full time job is the dogs, but to most this is a hobby done during their free time.

Something else you may be running into is your timeline. If people know they aren't going to have a pup available in the time line you have outlined, they may not be as quick to get back to you.

None of this helps you get the responses you want, but hopefully it helps with your frustration level.

by scubasigguy on 16 January 2010 - 06:01

LOL,

You are all right in one way or another... I just had to vent a bit, and where better than here? The married folks here will understand this.

I am looking for the perfect dog to some degree. Can you blame me? I know that the pup is like clay, I just want the clay I start with to have as close to the perfect consistency as possible. I know that people are busy as I am too. I am not locked into my time frame by any means, it was just my preference when I started out and I would like to stick close to it. I haven't shared my time frame with anyone until they have contacted me.

What really set me off today was the conversation with the individual who blasted the breed, along with almost every well known kennel out there. I can weed through the BS, and of course most people just tell you what they think you want to hear (just like anyhting else).

What's funny is that the show dog breeders think the working dog breeders are going about it all wrong, and vice versa. Nobody likes the ones in the middle, but so far they seem to be the ones that supossedly follow a written code of ethics regarding breeding standards. It's all a little amusing, yet very frustrating to the newbie. Every time I get close to a decision someone shoots holes in my plan, and I don't know who to believe. Some of these folks are very passionate in their dislikes.

I am sure that whatever pup I decide on won't be perfect in every way, but we'll be happy with it just the same.

by tkcfiddler on 18 January 2010 - 01:01

I think you have been given some very good advice in the previous posts. I do, however, have a few more thoughts to add. You said that you have been researching the breed for 3 months? To be honest, I think that this isn't long at all and might explain why you are so confused with the different responses (and non-responses) that you are getting. If you have so many questions, it seems to me that you still have a lot more research to do. Asking a lot of questions, that might appear to be novice questions to many breeders, might be the reason that some of they are not responding or stop responding after your initial conversations. You might be asking questions that they think you should already know or that they think a knowledgeable person wouldn't ask…and as stated before… many of these people are very busy themselves and don’t have time to teach you about everything. I know that this can be quite frustrating and can create a vicious cycle. You are reaching out to breeders, trying to learn, but then they don't respond back... so how do you learn? I won't tell you what to do, but I'll tell you what worked for me.

I first became interested in the Malinois breed more than 11 years ago. I did SERIOUS research (and I'm a researcher by profession) for a solid year (maybe more like 1 ½ years) before getting my puppy. I spent hours and hours and hours reading discussion forums, reading what people were saying about different stud dogs, reading the arguments and disagreements that many breeders and handlers were having online. Frequently they didn't post their real names on the discussion forums that I was visiting, but after spending time on so many discussion boards and websites, I began to see the same login names, the same people, and was able to put two and two together to figure out who they were. When I read about controversy over different breeders, different bloodlines, etc., I then aggressively researched even MORE so about the bloodlines that were being discussed. Yes, you hear a lot of conflicting stories, but the more you research, you really do begin to see patterns and you begin to read between the lines. (I was even finding comments about stud dogs, bloodlines, etc. on Dutch and French discussion forums, and was using Google translator to see what they were saying about these dogs!) In addition to my online research, I did contact different breeders. I then contacted people who had dogs from these breeders. I didn't ask the breeders to give me references; I was able to figure out who owned dogs from which bloodlines by simply going online. Then I would reach out to these individuals, tell them I was thinking of getting a dog from a particular bloodline, breeder, etc., and asked questions (but not too many). In addition to this, I actually went out and watched the dogs in action. I went to regional championships. Every single time a dog entered the field, I'd ask the person next to me... who is that dog? Who is he/she out of? etc. etc. etc. I passed up a number of VERY good breedings because I was looking for a specific type of dog.. a specific type of temperament.. knowing that yes, puppies are crap shoots, but I wanted genetics and early imprinting (i.e., what the breeder did with the pups the first few 8 weeks of life) to be on my side. After TONS of research, I am happy to say that my puppy is exactly what I wanted. The dog has TONS of potential, and now it is up to me to help him be the best that he can possibly be. All that can really say is that the amount of time and months and months of research was TOTALLY worth the wait.

Good luck in your search! Hang in there and keep doing your research! Got out and see the dogs in action... meet the owners and breeders in person. It will totally be worth the effort.... trust me...

by tkcfiddler on 18 January 2010 - 01:01

Just a quick side note.... adding to my above comments... If you want a very nice pup from a good, reputable breeder, expect to be put on a waiting list... and don't be surprised if you have to wait 6, 9, or even 12 months for your pup AFTER being put on the list.

by Jon luc on 20 January 2010 - 00:01

Buy two female pups from the same litter, about 5 rubber frizbees. And feel the rush.

Start training when you feel its time. JLP

And Love those puppies

by nk9cop on 20 January 2010 - 16:01

I agree with MOST of the advice you have received. Having said that........I will tell you what I tell everyone getting a Malinois for the first time, find an expert (A REAL EXPERT) and hire them to find the RIGHT Malinois for your specific situation. You may not want to come up with the extra cash but think about the time , money and FRUSTRATION you will save in the long run. No one can teach you how to pick a puppy or a breeder on this post. I have been working/breeding Malinois for 16 years and wouldnt even begin to try.

There are alot of good, credible people out there that know Malinois, Phil Behum seems to be one of them, Look at the free advise he is giving you on here, Imagine what he would do for you if you put $500-$1500 in his pocket(lol).

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