Prey v.s Wanting to Please - Page 1

Which of the two would you rather train and why,a prey dog or a dog that just wants to please its owner???

Which of the two do you feel is most loyal to its owner?

Jack, a very smart dog... could do everything very quickly, loved it if you were pleased with him and didn't much care if you weren't!  Totally my dog and I'd have trusted him with my life.

Gabi, a very smart bitch... could do everything very quickly and it was all done to please me, that's what she thrived on, it was like a drug for her.  Totally my dog and I'd have trusted her with my life.

Which would I rather have?  I don't know, they were both loyal and great fun... differently! 

I've never done protection / manwork with any of my dogs (I'm kind of thinking about it) so the whole prey drive thing has probably been less important? 

 In my opinion you are asking 2 different questions here. 1st what would you rather work with, If they have good prey drive you can get the second by making sure that the game always starts and stops with you.Then you become the focus of attention and all good things come from the handler.

Loyalty has nothing to do with either in my opinion,  My opinion loyalty has more to do with the bond between handler and dog which is built by your relationship to your dog and it,s upbringing. I,ve seen good competition dogs that are wonderful dogs for the sport but I believe have little regard for the handler and i,ve seen mutts that would lay down there lives before they would abandond there partners... I hope i,m on the track you were asking.  

what you are talking about here are two of the things most discussed, most easily misunderstood, most difficulty defining and most difficult to recognise.  that is what level of hard or soft and what level of sensitivity and also drives in relation to thresholds.  the level of handler sensitivity determines whether or not the dog desires to please and to what degree.  a hard dog that is not handler sensitive appears bullheaded, stubborn and very difficult to train.  a hard dog that is very handler sensitive is OFTEN mistaken for a soft dog. particularly, when the dog is not clear on what you are training and there is confusion; these dogs will exhibit submissive behaviors simply because they desire to please and don't know how to acheive it.  this is an oversimplification, ofcourse, since there is a rainbow of levels of hardness, softness and degrees of sensitivity.  threshold is the degree of stimulation required to set a dog in drive.  low threshold dogs require very little stimulation to be "in drive."  everything sets them off.......even their own imagination.  high threshold dogs are not easily set in drive and are often seen as unmotivated dogs.  a dog with a high threshold in defense may not view your helper as a threat and never work in defensive drive because of it.  conversely, a dog with a low threshold in prey is set off by everything.  we hear a lot about "over the top drives" and many folks automatically corelate this to prey drive since we seem to put so much emphasis on it.  sufficient prey drive is necessary in order to train any sort of dog sport or police work, however, there is a point when excessive prey drive can actually stand in the way of training, when the dog is so driven that he wants to get everything, is not focused or clear and is very difficult to train.  occasionally you will hear someone talk about balance in drives and i would add that a balance in thresholds is equally important.  you don't want a dog that requires excessive stimulation to be set in drive and at the same time, you don't want a dog to go-off all the time whether it is in prey or in defense.  a handler needs to be very honest with himself in regards to his own character/abilities and attempt to match himself with a dog that will work best for him.  realistically, we don't all need (or want) dogs with over the top drives; don't all need a super hard dog.  most of us average joes would actually do much better with a good solid dog with balanced drives and thresholds.  most of us will never be national winners or world competitors and don't even aspire to be.  its easy to get into trouble by listening to others tell us what we need for a dog or what is wrong with the one we have. 

because i actually live with my dogs, i have to be able to put up with them.  i have found high drives and low thresholds to be a real pain in the butt.  so what i might look for in a dog could be completely different from what a competitor would look for. 

pjp

****by the way, these are good questions to ask.  the better educated we become, the better able we are to make good decisions and to evaluate the dogs correctly.

pjp, I like your answer, it took me three reads... but you're right.

things get even stickier and more difficult to read as the dog gets older and has received a fair amount of training.  the drives, thresholds and sensitivity of a raw, untrained dog are more honest and easier to read, but as the dog becomes more trained, it takes far more skill to be able to discern what is at the core of the dog as opposed to what has been trained in.

pjp

IMO what makes the GSD breed so special is the desire to please and work with its handler. It is most satisfying to have a dog that wants to be with you, is focussed on you and after a while a strong bond develops such that the dog can even read your intentions.

However, there seems to be an obsession these days for the "hard dog" which sometimes means compromising on handler sensitivity. I don't want a dog that will wilt under the first sign of pressure but I don't want a rottweiler either.

Back to your question, prey and independence/handler focus is not mutually exclusive. Both can be improved with training to some extent. A dog without prey is a bugger to train but remember some pups only come into their own later in life. However even as a pup it is easy to spot the dog who wants to work with you versus the independent one.

I live with my dogs like Ziegenfarm, i like moderate to high-ish threshold dogs.

Is it fair to say that the higher threshold dog gets overlooked more as a puppy compared to that of a lower threshold?

i certainly think that is possible.  especially if the person doing the evaluating is looking for what we commonly refer to as "ball crazy."

pjp

I like to see a litter that is active, playful, adventurous, alert and up to mischief.

But in that littler, I like the pup that when all is quiet, he can settle down for some relaxation. Not the one that cannot settle or has full blown reaction to the slightest stimuli. I believe this is a sign of clear headedness or an "off" switch later in life.

I had a dog that was very laid back in normal life, to the point of being lazy sometimes. But when it came to work his drive was incredible. This dog could change like night and day. Was prone to being selectively deaf when he was relaxing and prefered to keep an eye on the family from a distance rather than being at the bottom of your feet  but was  extremely reliable when i needed him to be. He could almost second guess what you were about to tell him.