Question for protection sports/schutzhunders on temperament - Page 1

My current dog is quite stable and clearheaded.  He grips very hard and calm.  I adore training him-he is teaching me Schutzhund.  He is from a variety of working backgrounds if you want to see his pedigree:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/5/455234.html

Anyway, that said, he has a high threshold before aggression comes through during training.  Which in some aspects is fine with me.  Now that he will be 4, he is bringing that level to the helper, even though he likes the sleeve.  However he will bring the sleeve to the helper as THIS dog LOVES the fight. I am not certain what is prey and what is his aggression as I see his body langauge and ass, while the helper can read his face. I think he sees the sleeve as his tool to engage with the helper. The harder the fight the more he ramps up.  He loves the stick and just about anything helpers throw at him.  But man he is mostly in prey  for quite a few months.  Perhaps this is just his development.

He is very clear-headed and stable at home too. But he gets wild if we don't do bitework regularly or some other task.

My question is some dogs seem to need barely a stiff posture or a look from the decoy to go into  true defense (avoidance, hackles up, etc)and then some directly into confident aggression.  Some (like mine) need more active threat and engagement with the helper to bring aggression.  Is one extreme more desireable than the other? What are your thoughts?

I am not talking about "points" here, but for a more comprehensive picture of the GSD.

I would prefer my dog to have that confidence and be thinking it through in his mind.  Then turn it on hard and know why not just doing a routine.

You could quicken his trigger but thats up to you and what you think.  

I don't do Schutzhund but thats my opinion.

Diffrent dogs need to be worked diffrently not really a good or bad thing just different

When working a defense driven dog you will proabaly want to work with more threat from the helper  (ie whip, stick) and defense orientated dog can  be a more serious dog

A prey orientated dog will require more motion (such as run outs etc) to the dog its more of a game.

Having said that the ideal is balanced drives, a dog who is serious about the game if you will.  Often a highly prey driven dog can become distracted easier -a defense driven dog can be somewhat harder to train.

At no point do I want to see the dog "hackling up" at that point fear is coming into the equation and that equals unpredicatability.

This is really oversimplified hope it helps some

Jeff

I have a female that hackles just from playing.  She is very sound in all other respects, we have always called them her "happy hackles".  Kind of cute, a ruffle just above the tail base.  I don't see any fear, just arousal.

When I see a dog with it's back up I see adrenaline just like in a human triggered by many thing's.  It can be brought on by many thing's, just like us.    Fear can bring it on but thats not the only thing that can.  Think about the last time your heart got racing over something.  

I think sometime's it's body language (posturing) and under some control, and other time's it's emotion's and not controlled, but more an automatic responce brought on by a particular stimulation to the brain, fear, sex, hatred, yes I think a dog can actually hate something.  The desire to kill it as a predator and it's prey.  Anything that cause's the release of Adrenaline.  Come up behind a dog and pop a paper sack, suprise him and see if that doesn't make his back hackle.  He would be startled not scared or afraid.

I would not think a dog in Schutzund should ever have his hackle's up.  It mean's something's not right in my opinion.

Happy hackle's?   Yeah I could see that sort of excitement tiggering this reaction in a small way just from a rush of adrenaline. 

Again one must look at the total picture.  I do agree with Brent that it can come from adrenaline But look at the total picture. the posture, how the dog is barking..  The playing dog probbably shows a whole lot of other cues that show its having a good time..  A nervy dog will have a different picture.

Just for clarification,  my dog does not have hackles during protection work. I was just using it as an example.  I have seen o few dogs who are presenting with hackles when there is a threat from the helper.  I personally don't think I would want to train a dog in sch who shows that behvior consistently despite all training efforts.  The dog is not enjoying the work.  SOme dogs have are quick to confident aggression with the decoy, others not.  Is it possible to have a dog that is too stable for the schutzhund field and does a dogs training really want to create such a huge threat to bring out the aggression?

For schuthund work there needs to be some utilazation of drive..  You either work the dog in defense or in prey (or some combination) but a helper will need to bring that out. There are some dogs that may not posses the proper drives for schutzhund. it is NOT they are too stable.. just may not have the right drives for what you are wanting to do.

That being said a good helper can usually bring out the drives and utilize them for the work.  there are exercises that you can do thiis for.  They will be individualized to the dog.

In schutzhund I want a stable dog, but a dog with drives.  I do not want a dog that bites everything around or startles easily.

I guess I think the ideal schutzhund dog would have nerves like "the outlaw Josie Wales" from the old Clint Eastwood film.  No  matter what they are cool calm and intent on the work.

"Is it possible to have a dog that is too stable for the schutzhund field "

I don't believe there is such a thing as too stable. You  just need a helper that knows how to work the dog. Sounds like yours knows when it's a real threat. Your helper needs to  work him with a more threatening posture, consistently. The dog will begin to come into fight drive sooner ans sooner. He will get to the point where he will come into fight drive as soon as he sees the helper, because he knows what's comming next.