What kind of puppy? - Page 1

What kind of pups would you expect from a breeding of this nature knowing the dogs qualitys in these lines.

• 5 - 5............................................. in SG Timmy von der bösen Nachbarschaft
   
• 5 - 5,4........................................... in SG Half vom Ruhbachtal
   
• 4 - 4,3........................................... in Dax von der wilden Räuberbande
   
• 5 - 5,4........................................... in Eska vom Fegelhof
   
• 4 - 5............................................. in V Rastha von Haus Antverpa
   

I know that this is hypothetical because the sire and damn play a huge factor in the outcome but just for fun what qualitys would you expect if you saw this linebreeding. Good and Bad

These dogs are high quality serious working dogs. Where can such a litter be found in the USA? Do you know?

My older female has crosses very similar to Timmy, I would love to be able to find the Bernd vom Lierberg crosses like she has.

If you know of such a kennel or litter please let me know.

They certainly would be remarkable puppies!

My first question is what are you looking for in a puppy/dog. Pet, active companion, sport dog for fun, high level sport dog, world class competitor dog? I suspect not show given the pedigree lines. What do you want physically in the dog - are looks important, coat color, hip/elbow status etc. Did you look at the pictures on the db of his porgeny, grand and great progeny? Are they physically the type of dog you like? How many have you met in person? What did you like or not like in them? In other words what do you intend for this dog and is the picture your seeing compatible with this goal.

While there are certainly some impressive dogs listed above the one that I suggest you focus on is Dax since the litter is linebred on him 4-4,3. This tends to be a fairly strong linebreeding so one would expect Dax and the type he produced would be strongly expressed.  Which leads to more questions you may want to ask the breeder.  Why are they linebreeding on Dax (other than name on paper or easy and cheap by keeping breedings "in house")?  What characteristics and traits did he have that they valued and are trying to preserve and propogate. More importantly did he pass on those traits to his progeny - if he did not then it is unlikely that they will produce them even tho linebred on him. You also need to ask what undesirable traits and health conditions he carried or produced since it is likely these genes will be concentrated as well.

I do not know this dog or his progeny. But looking at the info on the db and at the SV and OFA several questions would be raised for me. Presuming you are looking for something more than a sport dog for fun ( and you may not be), the first question if this is such a dynamite dog to be linebreeding on why does he just have a Sch 1? Next is why do only one son and one grandson have any working titles (1 SDA and 1 Sch1 w/ score of 246). The rest of his progeny, grandprogeny and great grandprogeny have no working titles tho 1 daughter and 2 grandchildren have BH's perhaps indicating they may proceed to titles.

The other concern I would have would be hip/elbow production.On the OFA db he only shows 4 progeny. 2 with only passing hips including one fair and 2 with only passing elbows. Usually that means that they screen for both but only one ( hip or elbow) passed. Unfortunately 3 individuals claimed to have OFA numbers do not show up in their database. Several of his progeny have ZW numbers meaning they got some kind of "a" stamp. Several have no hip clearance.

I found the following ZW numbers for his progeny.

Terra Ty Zw 114 Prada ZW 87 and Obi ZW 87 and OFA Good Lex  OFA Fair and for grand and linebred great grand progeny                              Falko ZW 80  Basia 93 Ness 92. The other 19 show no record in either system. Some are too young for OFA but most are old enough for the "a" stamp.

If you study the hip statistics available , gnerally speaking working lines tend to have lower ZW averages than high lines, and higher percentages of dogs that pass and higher percentages of progeny x-rayed. It seems that most working lines tend to have ZWs from the high 60s to mid 80s. Higher numbers are more often seen in the show lines. That said, the ZW numbers shown above seem rather high coming from a working pedigree. The percentage x-rayed that could be determined is only 26% which seems low.

Now personally I am not a hip nut because I have learned that the vast majority of GSDs I have known that had HD lived perfectly normal lives often working successfully into old age. The dogs don't read x-rays and change their lives - we do. I am also not saying that this dog would produce HD. I simply do not know. All I can say is that compared to some other dogs his statistics do not look as good. I think this is another area to ask the breeder about . I also think whether it is a puppy from this breeding or another, have you thought about what would happen if the dogs hips or elbows did not clear and FOR YOU would that change anything. We all put different priorities on different factors so it's good to be clear up front what your priorities are and what you are willing to give a little on since after all the perfect dog hasn't been invented yet. Oh wait, mine just nudged my leg to say -wrong on that issue. :)

Do let us know your hopes and goals for your next dog and perhaps some folks a whole lot more knowledgeable about these lines than I am may pop in and comment.  

This linebreeding is on my two dogs which come from the same breeder. I bought them as a very unknowledgeable handler and owner. Because I was so  unknowledgeable I bought them with the intention to breed. RELAX!! I gained alot of knowledge between then and now and chose not to breed after a few EYE OPENING months. Now that I have been seriously working my dogs with people who know about working dogs for a while now I am seeing verygood qualitys from the both of them so I decided that if they both are healthy (hips, blood tests etc....) and they get there Sch titles and prove to have qualitys that I would like in a dog then I mite consider Breeding them.  TIG you are absolutly correct in saying what you have said about DAX. My oppinon is that if you look at the breeder that had him they dont title dogs very much unless I am unaware of recent tittles. I feel that they sell BLOODLINES which as a young handler was the Most important thing to me but now I know better. That does not mean that they dont produce good dogs but its hard to prove because there is no evidence of working ability. I am loking for a srong workng prospet because both my dogs are that.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/548108.html

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/548130.html

I want good temperment, strong drives, great nose's and dogs suited for all areas of life. My dogs are showing these qualitys to me and if they can prove themselves on the field and at the doctor then I mite consider breeding them. What qualitys do you typicaly get from linebreeding to these dogs is still a little un answered

Congratulations on Phoenix's BH and good luck in your future work. It is a blessing to a breeder to have a dedicated owner willing to train and trial their dog.

If this will be your first litter, my recomendation for all the reasons above and a few more is NOT to do it no matter how many titles they each get or how well they do or even if they seem to compliment each other ( important in breeding). Phoenix is already 2-3 on Dax which is one of the strongest producing linebreedings. IF he produced himself then she is likely to produce his traits and characteristics so there is no need to go in further. The question again is what is so special about him to be linebreeding on him and do you know the  good AND bad what he has produced. Also given the problematic hip picture AND the fact that her dam had the ZW of 114 AND she is a Dax daughter  I don't think it is necessarily the wisest choice to go back on those lines. Also when looking at the structure which has been produced over 3 generations  from my perspective only, it is lacking. Phoenix is one of the better structured dogs but I suspect she might only get a G rating.  Structure IS important especially in a working dog that you want a long healthy working life.

Finally both dogs have some signficant serious well known working dogs in their pedigrees. I would be looking at these lines for a place to go with an eye to 3 things 1. improving the hip picture 2. improving structure 3. finding a bloodline with a more confirmed working picture.

A stud fee is the cheapest best investment you can make. For the cost of a stud fee you can go anyplace in the world and find the best dog/line for your bitch. Similiarly I would look to lease a bitch for the male if he proves himself. Please do NOT become yet again another breeder who finds it easier and cheaper to use their own male even when it is likely he is NOT the best dog for the bitch. Even if you do not rue the day it is possible some of your puppy buyers may. Do them and yourself a favor by taking the time while you are titling to learn bloodlines and most especially learn the strengths and weaknesses of your dogs and their bloodlines so that you can intelligently choose that best partner for each of them.

I promise you TIG i will not be another one of THOSE kinds of breeders. I know far to well what can happen when you are not honest with what kind of dog you have. Everyone thinks that there dog is great but only the best know that there dogs are not untill the dog proves it. I wanted to say last time a comment aout DAX. I dont know alot about him but in regards to what he has produced I take into consideration highly the females that he was bred to. His ZW is 78 I think and the only thing that kills me is that sometimes the best dogs do not go to the best owners or handlers. Breeding is a very tricky thing that only time proves successful or failure but minimizeing the failure with good knowledge is very important.

TIG tell me what you think of this line breeding. Same scenerio

• 5 - 5............................................. in SG Timmy von der bösen Nachbarschaft
   
• 5 - 4............................................. in V Xato von der bösen Nachbarschaft
   
• 5 - 4............................................. in Yasko vom Dreibirkenhain
   
• 5 - 4............................................. in V Angie von der bösen Nachbarschaft
   
• 4 - 3............................................. in 1998 WUSV CHAMPION Quasy von der bösen Nachbarschaft
   
• 5 - 4............................................. in Biene vom Heiligenbösch
   
• 4 - 3............................................. in Trixi von der Taffingsmühle
   
• 3 - 2............................................. in V Prandy von der Lobach
   

I'm presuming this would be a breeding between Talon and Onex since there is no linebreeding on Dax. Correct? Onex from what can be seen in the photo looks to be an attractive girl but would like to see her stacked and she certainly has some impressive dogs in her pedigree.

A couple of comments. First I happen to be a pedigree nut. I love studying pedigrees and seeing the different "brews" that some really good breeders have put together and looking at what elements went into that brew. However you MUST remember two things. First DON"t forget to look up from the paper and look at the actual dogs and their actual work, traits and characteristics. A pedigree can look great on paper and in reality it just did not click and it was a nightmare. The opposite can happen too tho usually a dog like that is what we call a "sport" meaning he does not reproduce the traits that made him or her so great because the pedigree depth is just not there. Which brings us to the 2nd thing. Breeding is as much or more an art than science. I personally believe you have to have the "eye" for it. Some people can look at two dogs and just know in their gut it is a match waiting to be made or vice versa. Sometimes that skill can be acquired thru hours and years of study ,observation and hands on experience. The rare person comes with it built in. I personally find fanciers (often also horse fanciers) who truly understand good structure as well as the drives have a heads up in this department.  All too often breeders do not have it and make no effort to acquire it merely breeding to names or the latest fad. So my suggestion for you once again is to use the next couple of years you have before your dogs will be titled and cleared to study study study. Go to as many Schutzhund trials, regionals and nationals; herding trials (all types); obedience trials, agility trials, conformation shows (German and American), local regional and national as you can get to. Watch the best in each field not just the best dog but the best handler. A great handler can make a so so dog look good. A poor handler can make a great dog look bad. Also it's interesting what dogs you see where. You often see a breeder's "cast offs" in obedience or agility or at a local club trial. May still be a great dog just not what the breeder was looking for but it gives you an eye into ALL types their dogs really produce. Go to seminars and buy books and videos on structure, breeding (check out Carmen Battaglia), training, health problems in the breed etc etc. All of this will make you better at evaluating your dogs and other dogs. Start to learn what your priorities are. As I noted it's different for all of us. For example back in 1978 I became concerned about the loss of longevity in the breed and started to select for longevity with the result most of my dogs have lived to a healthy 13 or 14. I still would like to improve on that. Some of the old timers and a few dogs today have lived to 15 or 16. Again this is a learning area- what traits are highly inheritable and what are not. Two that are highly inheritable are longevity and reproductive traits. Look at a bitches dam, granddam, great granddam and you will get a good idea about frequency and duration of heat cycle, age of first one, number of pups produced etc. It's remarkably consistent. Now to your question.

I have noted before on this board that family matters kept me from active involvement in the breed for about a decade. So while I know the names I did not know the dogs. I will PM Shelley and ask her to comment for you. You may also want to PM Molly. So the comments I am about to make are "on paper" only and therefore probably not worth much.

Once again you are looking at a very close linebreeding 3-2 on Prandy.  He appears to be an attractive dog and I like the fact that he is V KKl1 a normal and Sch3. Once again the question is what does he/did he bring to the table that makes him worth linebreeding on. What traits are you hoping to capture? Do both of the individuals being bred express those traits? Linebreeding should not just be numbers on the paper. You should be trying to capture or intensify desirable traits while minimizing undesireable traits. What was the good he produced? The bad? How many individuals have you seen? Unfortunately on the PDB there are only limited breedings shown and what is shown suffers from the same problems in Talon and Phoenix's lineage. Little or no titles and hip clearances. So question is are you helping yourself there? What have his siblings and half siblings done. What are his parents and grandparent production rate ( work, show, hip) These are all things you should be asking and getting the data on.

I personally love to see a solid line of Sch3 bitches in the pedigree. I also personally  prefer to see some littermate depth in titles and of SG or V structure (hard to find these days). So I obviously like the fact that his dam is SchH3/FH/ IPO KKL1a and that her grand dam and great grand dam were similar in this area. This might also suggests that she was bred to the heavy hitters of her time because of her strength not her weakness. Both she and her sire have pretty classic hip profiles for the 1rst and 2nd generations for working lines. Her dam slightly less so. The breeding to Quasy was linebreding on the sire lines of Mutz Pelztierfarm, Wicko Meranand Nico v Haus Beck - a well known "brew".  The question remains however is does Prandy AND his progeny reflect her virtues and this brew.

Since by linebreeding on Prandy you are also linebreeding closely on his parents 3-4 which brings us to Quasy. Tho not my decade, obviously a well known dog. Both he and his sire bred a lot but how that translates into an actual production record I do not know. Perhaps Shelly can speak to that. Again fairly typical workline hip production.  What would excite me is looking at the bitch lines in his pedigree which leads us to his linebreeding which is  3-3 on V rated Askia  V-BSP 1982, SG-BSP 1983, 1984, SCHH3, IP3, FH Kkl 1   > A bitch but what a bitch - look at who she produced http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny/3030.html but also who she was bred to. But we are once again left with the question were her attributes passed thru to the dog you are looking at AND his progeny? Since I do not know Prandy or his progeny I can not comment and really do not know what you could expect from such a breeding. Hopefully Shelley or Molly can shed some more light for you. I do applaud you for asking the questions and trying to learn. Keep it up.

Its gonna take me awhile to digest all of the above. Probably take till at least tomorrow unless I can find my other glasses.

SS