Follow on to why do the breed them like this - Page 1

Sorry, the other thread just became too long.

Gustav & Sunsilver,  Let's assume that your're right... why then, are the forces etc simply not purchasing / using the "superior" dogs that you and similar minded people are breeding?

It's not that simple is it?  Breeders have to (or should?) take into account many things these days, not least of which, is the huge (and growing) anti dog faction.  The vast majority of Shepherds end up in average pet homes... that's a simple fact.  High drive working lines are not ideal for the "couch potato" pet home.

What breed is as it was 100 years ago? 

If you want this high drive working machine... fine... breed them, clearly many of us don't but we're not stopping you from breeding, nor are we constantly slating your sometimes, less than well constructed specimens!  So... get on with it!

Ideally, I'd like to show and work my dogs, as I have done in the past, however, work comes in many forms and perhaps "we" need to be a little more open to the idea that it doesn't have to include, protection, manwork etc and that every dog does not have to have this manic prey drive in order to work.

I've worked my dogs up to a very good level in the past and shown them, but I don't want a dog that I can't / won't allow others to approach, I don't want a dog that has to be muzzled to visit the Vet, I don't want a dog that's like some of the ones described on various threads and I don't want one that looks like yours!

Now your talking!!!! my sentiments exactly Missbeeb!!!!! In this country,uk, we have the dangerous dog act, so far the gsd is not listed as a dangerous breed. I, as a breeder have spent many many years breeding dogs that have tempreaments,that will keep them off this list. I do not agree with some of the dogs listed on the "dangerous" list, but ended up there due to public outcry,after a few cases of dog attacks. In this country our ultimate judges are the general public,i cannot imagine what would happen if they were privvy to all this working dog,PP training,and SCH protection phase, they just would not get it at all. As to another point Missbeeb made,where are all the threads about show dog people ripping the working line dogs? Each to thier own,i do not like a lot of the worklines but if that's your fancy that is up to you. I do however get fed up with all show dogs being tarred with the same brush, we could all have OUR UGLY DOG FILES,just don't understand anyone wanting to have one,weird!!! liz

As Meatloaf would say---You took the words right out of my mouth LOL         

What breed is as it was 100 years ago?

saluki.......whoooooooo im so going on mastermindlol

Tracie, i think over 100 years there will be some changes,maybe just subtle, but i would think there will be something. liz

This is why I pick a certain stud muffin to compliment my girls...

This is "Rocco" a Sam/Bullet pup,

This is what his owner has to say about this gsd.Hide quoted text -
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jennifer
Date: 2008/11/19
Subject: Sam/Bullet pup update who lives in Exeter, RI w/ The B...Family
To: vonryanhaus@gmail.com

Dan and Paula,
        Last year, on September 19, 2007, my boyfriend Kenneth and his dad brought home a puppy for me, Jennifer , from RYANHAUS German Shepherd Dogs. He is a Sam / Bullet pup. He was whelped on September 16th, 2007.  I named him Rocco.   He is my pride and joy.  It took about 5 days to house train him! He is highly intelligent, well mannered, strong, stoic, playful, curious and affectionate. In short, he is my best friend. Rocco comes to work with me Monday-Friday at my office ( we have a family owned and operated business). 
        Rocco plays ball/Frisbee up to three times per day and loves long walks. He is great in the car. As a matter of fact, I just traded in my car for a Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo so Rocco would  be more comfortable!
        I constantly get stopped by people in my neighborhood while we are on our walks who compliment me on how well behaved/trained and handsome he is!! 
        Rocco loves his Kong, Air Kongs, Nylabones, tennis balls, and bully sticks ( he has his own toy chest)! He is a great eater and loves carrot snacks. 
        On September 9, 2008, Rocco weighed in at a svelte 100 lbs. He has been a healthy guy thus far.
        I sent him to a professional trainer for 3 weeks in February and this past Summer he and I participated in Basic Obedience, which he passed with flying colors!
        Thank you  for giving me my best friend and companion.
 
**Attached are a few photos of my "little guy", Rocco.**  Enjoy!
 
           
           
Best regards,
 
Jennifer

     I know why I breed them like this,
as far as everyone else is concerned "To each his own"Paula

I think there are similar divisions in other breeds though, too.  Labs and golden retrievers are also "victims" of their own popularity.  Here is a link to a description of divisions in labs:  http://www.cmlrn.com/categories.htm

I think that any reputable breeder is going to take the health of their breeding stock into consideration when they are planning litters.  Unfortunately the American showlines have developed more of a reputation for having health problems more from unscrupulous breeding than inherent issues in appearance.  A local breeder just advertised GSDs for sale and I went to her site - on the 3 generation pedigree of the littler 1 dog had OFA results (I only found that on the dam's page) and the 3 gen. pedigree for the dam had 3 dogs with OFA results.  http://windcrestgsd.net/index.asp?ID=14  I know OFA isn't the only measure of health, but there are no other indications that this breeder did other health checks of the breeding stock.  This is far more detrimental to the breed, in my opinion, since we know that GSDs in general are prone to hip dysplasia, EPI, and other disorders that may be genetic. 

My preference is for working line dogs, but in each litter there is usually a range of drives among the puppies.  I've been able to get dogs that fit my plans of doing therapy work with them, but I've talked to the breeder about what I was looking for before making the decision.

Just my opinion.

Opal

Misbeeb and Funky monkey,  I breed German Shepherds per the standard as close as I can get them. My Dogs (notice I didn't say showline or workingline) are capable of being great pets/family dogs or working (police/sport) dogs. Why??? Because they have the true German Shepherd temperament to make the adjustment to the type of home they go to. I don't breed dogs that have more drive than brains, and I don't breed dogs that once they are off their property they have the "worried" look in their eyes. My wife marvels at how many people 4 to 6 months after they get a puppy from me calls back to say how they love their puppy and how sure of himself he is wherever he goes. I also have placed 7 dogs that I have bred with police dept. in past 10 years.(These are dogs I keep until 18 months and train and then off to the police dept.).  90% to family homes and 10% to real working environments, but my point is these dogs are what the German Shepherd should be. Some have V conformation, some SG, and some G, and some have disqualifying faults, but they represent the "purpose" of the breed. No viscious dogs, but confident sure dogs that will protect their family and not run under the table in a Thunder storm. As I read my version of the GS in Word and PIC, this is what I interpret the Capt. saying to preserve....what am I missing?

After reading your last post and of the kind of quality dog you actually breed, Gustav, I’m surprised that in the first you’d resort to sweeping, ill-defined black/white generalizations.

By capitalizing on the qualities of European herding dogs, Max of course envisaged a dog suitable for a variety of tasks, one sound in body and spirit; a vision to which most of us subscribe. The mindlessly narrow, ignorant and opportunistic fashion by which many owners now pursue/corrupt/exploit this concept - as goes too for schutzhund - almost parrot-like and bordering at times on religious hysteria - would see him turn in his grave I think! (Not including you, Gustav.)

Or trumpet often enough that uber-hard Eastern European are the ultimate and soon enough the uber-gullible oblige, no doubt off-loading future offspring into urban hapless family homes. No dog will do unless it can ‘work’? Sure, but for the benefit of more rabid advocates, work at what when pray tell!  

You say: “The dogs that have the structure to work and the dogs that I see working in vocations like SAR, Military, Herding, Police, are usually labeled as "nice pets", and the dogs that I see are labeled as superior structure (front, shoulder, angulation, length of stifle, etc), usually don't work and more important; genetically are incapable of working that's why these vocations don't use them or their siblings.”

Except for the odd poster here maybe, are such dogs ever really termed “nice pets”? (Excepting most police and herding animals and similar. they’d probably make the least suitable home companions.) The assertion that dogs with good anatomy “usually don’t work” simply doesn’t stand scrutiny. It would here also help if you defined ‘work’ for us. Even police dogs perform different tasks; interaction with the public often favors the more tractable, less extreme type of dog. Dogs with “superior structure genetically incapable of working”? Come now …

“Reality, prevalent mindset” and “why do we breed them like this”? Really no mystery there Gustav: the market! This activity is largely driven by profit, or pup sales rather, as variously facilitated, endorsed and promoted by the clubs. Even the smaller hobbyist hopes to sell his surplus offspring. The simple fact is, and one the more extreme ‘work’ converts expediently sweep aside, that the number of pups dedicated toward your mentioned specialties total but a pittance compared to those sold as ‘home companions’! Besides, more specialized harder lines remain readily available, and hardly face extinction.