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by jimmyh on 22 October 2008 - 21:10
Hello,
I am new to this site. I googled KNPV-USA and was directed here.
I have personally worked 2 KNPV Dogs in war, and had no real formal training. Thats right, NONE. My first Dog was killed in Iraq. He saved my life. He was an unbelievable Dog. When I see the normal Dog communication on websites between the "hardcore" Dog folks here in the US, I see some bullshit that needn't be there. Rest assured, a KNPV Dog will die for you. They will bite for REAL (as opposed to all the bullshit "training" bites) when they are directed and they will travel to work in Helicopters or under Parachutes or whatever you need. If the KNPV program came to the USA it would be a blessing. I have seen many trials in Holland and met the man who trained my first Dog. I went to their club and participated in some of the events, with my Dog, that he had to go through to get the "title." It was eye opening. By the way, the man who trained my Dog (the one who saved my life and died in a gunfight, saving me and my buddies) would never say "get a real Dog." I have tried to find a club in the US with the same attitude and it doesn't exist. People here are too caught up in image and things that just don't matter. Pray that the KNPV folks invest here. It would be a great thing.
by Kinolog on 22 October 2008 - 21:10
I hear you. Our dogs are not trained for competition or to be titled. We do not breed for profit although I have had a few companion-type dogs in civilian placements. So I go into a site like this knowing that our dogs are not going to be appreciated although their training is basically similar in concept. But just like your dog, they are not going to be doing what they do under fire, or in a situation where they might die doing their job. We think about that as trainers and handlers. We have to know the high demands on the character and performance, the life-and-death trust we put in these dogs. Show dogs get ribbons and silver cups. Service dogs, if they are lucky to stay alive, not only get medals but save lives. I have a great deal of respect for this ultimate sacrifice. In losing a dog in that type of circumstance, it is akmost more poignant than losing a fellow soldier. They go in with no concept of their own death that we can truly understand though they may have some sense of what they might happen - and they do it with such a selfless focus that it is actually quite humbling.
My best to you for the future. I hope that it helps a little to hear that there are people who can look beyond such trappings of competition to how this training has its ultimate purpose: for a dog to be a real partner in both war and peace, at work and in the home.
Leon Gagarin
by Get A Real Dog on 22 October 2008 - 23:10
The KNPV program was/is geared specifically for police/military dogs. They breed hard, hard dogs. The kind you wnat to go to battle with. They do not care about pedigree, bloodlines, or if a dog has "papers". they breed dog to work. This is way the majority of police/military dogs come from Holland.
AS always there are exceptions. I have seen a few KNPV titled dogs with some issues. But for the most part, if you purchase a KNPV titled dog you are "getting a real dog".
by Christopher Smith on 23 October 2008 - 04:10
Once again I have to ask questions that have never been answered. If KNPV is hard then why do so many dogs get perfect scores? And if it is not a sport then why are there scores and a championship?
I have been in schutzhund since the mid ‘80s and I have never seen a dog get a perfect score. Yet there are tens of dogs a year that get perfect KNPV scores.
I’m just curious.
by Christopher Smith on 23 October 2008 - 22:10
I hope I get an answer one day.
by wuzzup on 24 October 2008 - 04:10
i believe we train our dogs for what we want in this country if i owned a helicoptor id train my dog with it if i needed to blow things up id train my dog in that if i want my dog to play comando with me id train for that and i have played comando with my dog she got it real fast no place or reason to use it but we sure had fun with that game to each his own in the usa
by jennie on 24 October 2008 - 08:10
Could the difference be that in KNPV the routines are quite easy, compared to SCH where the precison and obedience is much stricter, like the tracking-phase for example? There are "sportdogs" also in KNPV what I´v heard, and it would surprise me if the dogs don´t get any additional training if they are going be used in service, where there are no routines and environments the dog knows before.
by snajper69 on 24 October 2008 - 12:10
Neither KNPV or SCH is a good measure of how the dog will perform in the real life, especially military dogs, I think they both are rather about evaluating level of trainability of a dog. Jennie who cares about the strict obedience? In real life you don't care about perfect heal, you might care about a heal during real stressful situation on a dog, but weather is perfect or not, nobody cares, unless it’s for points. You have to evaluate dog on separate basis, not every dog is "real" even though it might do good in Sch or KNPV. The dog that you had in Iraq might have something in his genes that really made him special (trust me we all had a dog that we still keep on trying to replace), rather than the training he was put through. I agree with you that Sch dog are missing on the extra aggression, but SCH are more about control and evaluating dog, SCH is not about aggression, the protection phase is not even close to what the dog would encounter in a real life, it was design as breed survey test. So you can't say that SCH dogs are shit's, they been worked to perform good in SCH that’s all (SCH is just a routine that’s it!!), if they would want them to be military dog the dog would have to be retrained. Same goes for KNPV not all KNPV dogs might do good in SCH and not all KNPV dogs will make good military dogs, they all would have to be to some level retrained, I am pretty sure that KNPV dog would be more ready for the military duties but not totally. You posts sounds little bit too emotional, you want the perfect dog, the dog to replace the one you lost? Buy one with good bloodlines almost any with check/ddr mix will do, work it, expose the dog to different scenarios, work the dog with good PPD or PSA trainer, I am pretty sure within 2 years you will have the dog you want. I would love if PSA would be more popular in my area it sounds more interesting for me than SCH (I don't care about perfect heals) I would love if KNPV would come to US as well, but till than I will work my dog with good PPD trainer, and it might not be titled but it will have all the mechanics that I need and like in a dog. So if you don't like the current venue I suggest you to do the same rather than make such a subjective statement like you did. A lot of SCH dogs are first of all perfect pets at home, so I think that SCh does the job that it was design to do very well. My dog’s don’t always make the perfect pet, they tend to be extra hard J and dominant.
by jennie on 24 October 2008 - 13:10
No, of course SCH-like obedience isn´t required for real life, but I was refering to why it may be harder to get full points in SCH compared to KNPV, who doesn´t have that strict precision and obedience demands. That almost every DDR/Czech mix will do as a PSD or militaydog sounds strange, there will probably be a great deal of dogs that are washed out just because HD/ED-problmes or other health problems, besides the obvious need for a strong character.
About armydogs, isn´t the greatest asset when dog used in combat thier nose and senses, and not their bitingability, I mean soldiers are heavily armed so what use do they have for bitingdogs?
by snajper69 on 24 October 2008 - 14:10
You would be surprise to see what passes for military dog (not always something that you would want at home, or recommend for the first time handler). Military dog are far most known for their over the top aggression (not much of pet quality), their training methods are known for the approach "we will brake it and than make it, into the dog we want him to be". HD/ED I never seen army screening for that, please do notice I did said good bloodline, that is why I think the DDR/Check is one mix that would fit the criteria very nicely (just well balanced dogs in my personal opinion), and I am pretty sure it would lower the rejection rate. My grandfather trained dogs for army and I learned a bit about their approach, they do not play around with the dogs, and the more aggression the dog had the more they knew it would make it through the training, I still remember the dog that he kept over for him self, there were not many people that would handle him, but for my grandfather that was his big teddy bear that he loved take to work with him (night guard when retired), he could sleep through and knew the dog would take care of everything else lol.
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